No Lift Shift
08-28-2019, 12:58 AM
#31
Racer
LOL. Ok, I'm back after a quick test drive to check my facts:
Try this next time you are out in your 6MT
Sport mode OFF
1) cruise along in 2nd say at 4000rpm with the throttle arrow showing light throttle
2) without lifting off the throttle, depress the clutch and change to 3rd, watching the revs drop to around 3000rpm. Do not lift off the clutch. Do not lift off the throttle
3) with the clutch still engaged, change from 3rd back to to 2nd and watch the revs return to 4000rpm, without adjusting the throttle
4) reengage 2nd smoothly.
The above works for me in many different scenarious - 3rd to 2nd and engage, 2nd to 3rd and engage, 3-2-3, 2-3-2 etc
It mucks up if I take a little too long or a little too quick or the throttle arrow disappears. But with a little practice at timing its very smooth and easy.
Try this next time you are out in your 6MT
Sport mode OFF
1) cruise along in 2nd say at 4000rpm with the throttle arrow showing light throttle
2) without lifting off the throttle, depress the clutch and change to 3rd, watching the revs drop to around 3000rpm. Do not lift off the clutch. Do not lift off the throttle
3) with the clutch still engaged, change from 3rd back to to 2nd and watch the revs return to 4000rpm, without adjusting the throttle
4) reengage 2nd smoothly.
The above works for me in many different scenarious - 3rd to 2nd and engage, 2nd to 3rd and engage, 3-2-3, 2-3-2 etc
It mucks up if I take a little too long or a little too quick or the throttle arrow disappears. But with a little practice at timing its very smooth and easy.
Are you just trying to trick the computer or is that how you actually drive your MTs?
08-28-2019, 01:01 AM
#32
Rennlist Member
NLS works on downshifts too. Even with sport mode off...
08-28-2019, 01:07 AM
#33
Instructor
I’m not sure I followed you completely, but the part about upshifting while continuing to hold light throttle is the No-Lift shift feature that works with or without Sport button. It works at any revs or throttle setting - the key is not to change the throttle position during the shifting process.
Another interesting "feature" is cruising at 4000rpm say, depressing the clutch and then flooring the throttle. Sometimes it will rev out, sometimes it will falter at 5000rpm. hmmmm
08-28-2019, 01:12 AM
#34
Racer
So the way people are shifting is like this?
1. Throttle on
2. Slide right foot onto brake while keeping throttle in. Slow car
3. Clutch in
4. Shift down
5. Clutch out
6. Release brake
7. Switch to maintenance throttle or back to full power out the corner.
So basically you're riding the brake and throttle before the clutch goes in?
At no point above do you take your foot off the throttle?
1. Throttle on
2. Slide right foot onto brake while keeping throttle in. Slow car
3. Clutch in
4. Shift down
5. Clutch out
6. Release brake
7. Switch to maintenance throttle or back to full power out the corner.
So basically you're riding the brake and throttle before the clutch goes in?
At no point above do you take your foot off the throttle?
08-28-2019, 01:26 AM
#35
Racer
Yeah, pg 225 of the Owners Manual briefly mentions it also. My point was that NLS [aka rev matching] works with both downshifts and upshifts, and that the electronics are always watching your inputs.
Another interesting "feature" is cruising at 4000rpm say, depressing the clutch and then flooring the throttle. Sometimes it will rev out, sometimes it will falter at 5000rpm. hmmmm
Another interesting "feature" is cruising at 4000rpm say, depressing the clutch and then flooring the throttle. Sometimes it will rev out, sometimes it will falter at 5000rpm. hmmmm
The "feature" you have discovered doesn't work if you need more the 4-5Krpm on the down shift, does it? So be in 3rd at say 5-6k and shift down to second, will it blip up to 7-8k or tap out at 4-5 and jerk the car on the shift? If the car jerks then you're using this feature wrong and need to go back to "conventional" shifting
08-28-2019, 01:40 AM
#36
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
So the way people are shifting is like this?
1. Throttle on
2. Slide right foot onto brake while keeping throttle in. Slow car
3. Clutch in
4. Shift down
5. Clutch out
6. Release brake
7. Switch to maintenance throttle or back to full power out the corner.
So basically you're riding the brake and throttle before the clutch goes in?
At no point above do you take your foot off the throttle?
1. Throttle on
2. Slide right foot onto brake while keeping throttle in. Slow car
3. Clutch in
4. Shift down
5. Clutch out
6. Release brake
7. Switch to maintenance throttle or back to full power out the corner.
So basically you're riding the brake and throttle before the clutch goes in?
At no point above do you take your foot off the throttle?
08-28-2019, 01:44 AM
#37
Racer
Lol I know not to do that .. but this is what it looks like to keep the throttle on and try and brake and downshift at the same time.
I'm trying to determine if the folks that think the car is always rev matching are just doing that for fun, or actually do drive like that. If it's the later that is why Porsche makes a perfectly good PDK box. 🍿
I'm trying to determine if the folks that think the car is always rev matching are just doing that for fun, or actually do drive like that. If it's the later that is why Porsche makes a perfectly good PDK box. 🍿
08-28-2019, 01:46 AM
#38
Rennlist Member
FWIW, I have had several erratic behaviors with the throttle mapping in my car. Especially sport mode which doesn't always rev-match on downshifts. And sometimes it over-revs on downshifts. Porsche might need a few more code developers it seems...
08-28-2019, 02:00 AM
#39
Rennlist Member
i believe you need to put shifter in neutral while doing so to rev out. Otherwise while in gear it’s limited to 5k.
08-28-2019, 02:01 AM
#40
Burning Brakes
Not that it's necessary in these cars but: imagine driving in 5th at 2500rpm and approaching a steep uphill. Then you could do a NLS to 4th or even 3rd (holding the throttle) if you wanted to keep the car speed up.
08-28-2019, 12:06 PM
#41
It’s your technique, not the car. And yes I’ve tried it all, including the 50 mph, 3rd gear thing. If you come off the gas completely before you push the clutch in (old school I know), the car revs freely. I have no issues with heel toe and no issues with the no lift shift. It all works fine.
My car does NOT rev freely in that circumstance. Driving 50 mph, 3rd gear, foot all the way off the gas, clutch in, (not touching gear lever, still in 3rd) hit the gas and the car falls flat on its face. Revs are limited like 200 RPM over the current RPM.
Watch this video and tell me you're thrilled about this result (watch with audio)
https://streamable.com/blnd9
I'm doing exactly as you describe above.
On the third attempt in the video I have to stab and release the throttle 3 times before it gets the idea I want to rev freely and that I'm not trying to no-lift upshift.
Super annoying. I'm learning to live/work around it but it's a feature that we should be able to disable.
And people asking why rev 'early' when downshifting -- it's happening in one single fluid motion. It's not like I'm in a high gear, stab the thottle then sit and wait 5 seconds, then move to a lower gear and act surprised it doesn't work the way I want. It's all happening as one fluid motion in half a second or less. It artificially forces me to wait until I'm already into the lower gear before I'm allowed to bring the revs up and then I can release the clutch. Whereas without this intervention I would have already been ready to get off the clutch at that point.
I'm convinced there were different revisions for the coding at this point. Some people report far too intrusive limiting behavior and others have no issue at all.
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jjrho (09-11-2019)
08-28-2019, 12:59 PM
#42
Racer
Your statement exactly confirms what I'm saying.
My car does NOT rev freely in that circumstance. Driving 50 mph, 3rd gear, foot all the way off the gas, clutch in, (not touching gear lever, still in 3rd) hit the gas and the car falls flat on its face. Revs are limited like 200 RPM over the current RPM.
My car does NOT rev freely in that circumstance. Driving 50 mph, 3rd gear, foot all the way off the gas, clutch in, (not touching gear lever, still in 3rd) hit the gas and the car falls flat on its face. Revs are limited like 200 RPM over the current RPM.
It seems like you want the car to behave a certain that it outside the threshold of "normal" gear changing in any MT box. There is never a need to rev the engine, witch clutch in, to get a MT out of the gear it is in and into neutral or another higher/lower gear. Unless you are driving a box from the 40's where you need to double de clutch.
Please help me here - how are the people that have issue with auto-blip/nls/rev-match actually changing gears in your cars? What is your technique as it seems non conventional.
08-28-2019, 01:29 PM
#43
Drifting
I can't think of a situation where you're cruising around and need to free-rev the engine, in or out of gear, with the clutch in, at speed.
I can't think of a situation where you need to keep either partial or full throttle while you downshift.
No-lift shifting is for going WOT as you upshift. It's for saving a few milliseconds during upshifts while you're flooring it. It's not for downshifts. Will it work that way? Yeah, sort of. But that's not it's purpose.
On the track: The only time you really downshift is while you're also BRAKING. You're approaching or entering a corner. And you're on the brakes. Hard. You either heal/toe or you let the car auto-blip in sport mode. Either way, you have zero need to keep partial throttle nor full throttle as you also brake and as you also downshift. Makes no sense. No-lift shifting is for going WOT as you upshift.
On the street: If you're putzing around in 6th gear and want to accelerate hard, then you know... just do that. What's the malfunction here? Off throttle and clutch in at the same time. Drop a few gears and then clutch out and back on throttle at the same time. Boom... you're gone. There's zero need to keep partial throttle or full throttle as you downshift.
I can't think of a situation where you need to keep either partial or full throttle while you downshift.
No-lift shifting is for going WOT as you upshift. It's for saving a few milliseconds during upshifts while you're flooring it. It's not for downshifts. Will it work that way? Yeah, sort of. But that's not it's purpose.
On the track: The only time you really downshift is while you're also BRAKING. You're approaching or entering a corner. And you're on the brakes. Hard. You either heal/toe or you let the car auto-blip in sport mode. Either way, you have zero need to keep partial throttle nor full throttle as you also brake and as you also downshift. Makes no sense. No-lift shifting is for going WOT as you upshift.
On the street: If you're putzing around in 6th gear and want to accelerate hard, then you know... just do that. What's the malfunction here? Off throttle and clutch in at the same time. Drop a few gears and then clutch out and back on throttle at the same time. Boom... you're gone. There's zero need to keep partial throttle or full throttle as you downshift.
08-28-2019, 01:32 PM
#44
No disputing that the car does what you say and in the video. But when you are driving why would you ever need to stay in gear, clutch in and rev? How are you shifting gears (down or up) that requires you to rev in the gear with the clutch in before shifting to the next gear?
It seems like you want the car to behave a certain that it outside the threshold of "normal" gear changing in any MT box. There is never a need to rev the engine, witch clutch in, to get a MT out of the gear it is in and into neutral or another higher/lower gear. Unless you are driving a box from the 40's where you need to double de clutch.
Please help me here - how are the people that have issue with auto-blip/nls/rev-match actually changing gears in your cars? What is your technique as it seems non conventional.
It seems like you want the car to behave a certain that it outside the threshold of "normal" gear changing in any MT box. There is never a need to rev the engine, witch clutch in, to get a MT out of the gear it is in and into neutral or another higher/lower gear. Unless you are driving a box from the 40's where you need to double de clutch.
Please help me here - how are the people that have issue with auto-blip/nls/rev-match actually changing gears in your cars? What is your technique as it seems non conventional.
That's not the primary concern though. It's as stated above, one fluid motion to downshift. If I have to wait until I'm already inside the lower gate to then blip the throttle and then release the clutch, it's much slower then blipping the throttle -- on the way down.
It's either get into lower gear, blip, release clutch, or blip as I'm coming down, land in lower gear -- revs are matching now -- and then release clutch immediately.
Different versions of the .2 manual have different coding, there's no doubt about that. There are quite a decent number of people on these forums that have this same gripe - it's not that we're just idiots that don't know how to drive manual (I've daily driven a manual for over 15 years now).
It you're even a touch 'too early' on the throttle (by the coding's standard) then it bogs the engine down and falls flat on its face. It's just annoying and unnecessary considering the only reason for that is to enable no-lift upshifts which I would make a practice of using.
The whole point of me talking about the free-revving while in gear thing was simply to demonstrate an exaggerated example of how the car chokes itself off it you're too early on the blip when downshifting. You guys are missing the point entirely. Try it on your car and you'll see there are different revisions in the coding.
The exact process I'd like it have work, but does not work properly on my GT3:
Brake
Clutch in
Gear lever in motion to the lower gear
-After getting gear in motion, right around the point the lever is around neutral, blip throttle
Lever lands in lower gear
Clutch out as we make contact in lower gear.
Back on throttle.
That key 4th step is what isn't working properly. I have to wait until I'm fully inside the lower gear before it allows me to rev, otherwise the artificial rev limiter chokes the engine out and the whole thing bogs into a terribly unsatisfying downshift.
Last edited by carbondan; 08-28-2019 at 01:50 PM.
08-28-2019, 02:05 PM
#45
Racer
There is no benefit from being the fastest down shifter, you are already braking which is what is actually modulating your speed. You want to be as smooth as butter on the down shift, so you don't change the dynamics of the car in the middle of the braking zone or leading into the corner - why b/c you may find your wing going into the wall vs your nose going through the corner.
So what is smoother? I'd argue conventional shifting (option B in my thread). brake, clutch in , shift down, blip + clutch out vs brake, blip, shift, clutch out. Why? b/c the closer in time you release the clutch at the "perfect" rev match the smoother it will be. Doing the blip earlier in time (before you move out of the gate) allows for more time for the engine RPM or gearbox RPM to go out of sync again.. waiting until the last possible moment (when the clutch comes out to blip) reduces that time period. Why is this time period important and should be small? B/c when you are braking the speed you wash off and the track dynamic may have changed from the last time you saw the corner. Maybe your brakes are hot, tires lacking grip, dirt/rubber on the track, another driver taking a different line. If you need to brake more, or less, the relationship between engine RPM and gearbox/drive train will be different from when you bliped while still in the previous gears gate.
So if your goal is butter smooth downshifts under hard braking and want to keep solid chassis balance then a) heel/toe "correctly" (brake, clutch in, shift down, blip and clutch out at the same time) or b) use auto-blip and let the computer do it for you or c) buy a PDK. If being smooth and having maximum car control is not important then do the NLDS (No Lift Down Shift) and deal with all the rev limiting and awkward comments from RL's about your technique. It really doesn't matter how many years you have driven MT, what cars you own and if you know how to double D a tractor .. it's about optimizing for the conditions that you want to be best in.
Personally I want the smoothest most controlled downshifts. Coming into turn 11 at Somona (the run out is tire and concrete wall less than 50 yards in front of you) at well over 100Mph I don't want to have to deal with an unsettled car b/c I wanted to blip before I shifted and then deal with the computer fighting against me (b/c even Porsche think you shouldn't do it - and well, they understand driving and engineering better than most of us). So I either heel/toe or auto-blip "correctly" and the car stays out the tires/wall.
So what is smoother? I'd argue conventional shifting (option B in my thread). brake, clutch in , shift down, blip + clutch out vs brake, blip, shift, clutch out. Why? b/c the closer in time you release the clutch at the "perfect" rev match the smoother it will be. Doing the blip earlier in time (before you move out of the gate) allows for more time for the engine RPM or gearbox RPM to go out of sync again.. waiting until the last possible moment (when the clutch comes out to blip) reduces that time period. Why is this time period important and should be small? B/c when you are braking the speed you wash off and the track dynamic may have changed from the last time you saw the corner. Maybe your brakes are hot, tires lacking grip, dirt/rubber on the track, another driver taking a different line. If you need to brake more, or less, the relationship between engine RPM and gearbox/drive train will be different from when you bliped while still in the previous gears gate.
So if your goal is butter smooth downshifts under hard braking and want to keep solid chassis balance then a) heel/toe "correctly" (brake, clutch in, shift down, blip and clutch out at the same time) or b) use auto-blip and let the computer do it for you or c) buy a PDK. If being smooth and having maximum car control is not important then do the NLDS (No Lift Down Shift) and deal with all the rev limiting and awkward comments from RL's about your technique. It really doesn't matter how many years you have driven MT, what cars you own and if you know how to double D a tractor .. it's about optimizing for the conditions that you want to be best in.
Personally I want the smoothest most controlled downshifts. Coming into turn 11 at Somona (the run out is tire and concrete wall less than 50 yards in front of you) at well over 100Mph I don't want to have to deal with an unsettled car b/c I wanted to blip before I shifted and then deal with the computer fighting against me (b/c even Porsche think you shouldn't do it - and well, they understand driving and engineering better than most of us). So I either heel/toe or auto-blip "correctly" and the car stays out the tires/wall.