Tale of a GT2RS Allocation
04-05-2018, 12:16 PM
#61
Banned
Yes, most states, including California, require such deposits to be refundable until there is a good deal of specificity about the object you are buying. I'm not an expert on the nuance of those rules, but until they send an order to the factory with your name on it, you can take the deposit back.
It's an ACTUAL piece of paper with some info on it, not a wink wink nudge nudge deal like the OP got from his dealer. I doubt I could sue Mercedes with it, but at least the effort is made to attempt to make it look like I am ordering a legit vehicle not vaporware.
04-05-2018, 12:37 PM
#62
Rennlist Member
Don´t believe in Lambo, Ferrari, McL - that there is another mentality.
Try to get the limited models - you will see the same game - even more advanced.
P wants to join with the GT line the game as F plays it since decades.
Would i do the same? If i would be a P manager - for sure i would!
They started with the 918 program - and nearly failed! side question: How was it back during CGT times? How they tried to get rid of them?
But i don´t know the reason why they do not pump out more GT2RS.
I was told that they can and will do way more .2GT3RS. As they did .2GT3 and Tourings. Market-1 was and is the case in EU. no ADM issue here.
Why they start with such a small number of .2GT3RS? Maybe they fear a bit the hudge volumn of .1GT3RS speculation units on the market... They wait and see what happens? They can decide to build up to 6.000 units ww. I do know it from one of their suppliers for specific .2GT3RS parts.
The ADM on .2GT3RS are around 30-50k; not as 50-100k during the .1GT3RS.
Also P is getting a bit more careful. They know the market. Each sector of it.
We reflect just 20% of the market here at RL. the addicts. The rest are guys who wants the fame for no money. Or: "racetrack? yeah lets go. it will look good on my instagram story." Or the ones who just want to earn money.
Speak with sales people - ask them how many do know technical details of GT cars.
It is about the money. and because in the US are even more people hustling for motorsport as hustling for money. and with the local dealer law. it sums up to madness.
i do blame PCNA a bit. for sure there would be a way to "teach" some of the dealers. less discounts etc. but all this hate and bad blood for a couple of GT cars? if there are 12x 911 on each GT car; as CJ said. than there will be 50 P cars in total vs. 1 GT car.? better keeping the dealer (and his brother in law) happy with the profit of their flipped GT cars.
who is guilty? maybe we? the funky porsche brand ambassadors? never met so many cool guys on one spot to speak about all different ingredients of driving emotions as i meet during P events. Maybe during a Caterham or Miata meeting it feels similar.
For sure not at a Lambo or F event.
so who is guilty? i tell you. those german engineers and the brand history!
Heaven forbid that marketing and sales people of P will get as "clever" as the italians.
Try to get the limited models - you will see the same game - even more advanced.
P wants to join with the GT line the game as F plays it since decades.
Would i do the same? If i would be a P manager - for sure i would!
They started with the 918 program - and nearly failed! side question: How was it back during CGT times? How they tried to get rid of them?
But i don´t know the reason why they do not pump out more GT2RS.
I was told that they can and will do way more .2GT3RS. As they did .2GT3 and Tourings. Market-1 was and is the case in EU. no ADM issue here.
Why they start with such a small number of .2GT3RS? Maybe they fear a bit the hudge volumn of .1GT3RS speculation units on the market... They wait and see what happens? They can decide to build up to 6.000 units ww. I do know it from one of their suppliers for specific .2GT3RS parts.
The ADM on .2GT3RS are around 30-50k; not as 50-100k during the .1GT3RS.
Also P is getting a bit more careful. They know the market. Each sector of it.
We reflect just 20% of the market here at RL. the addicts. The rest are guys who wants the fame for no money. Or: "racetrack? yeah lets go. it will look good on my instagram story." Or the ones who just want to earn money.
Speak with sales people - ask them how many do know technical details of GT cars.
It is about the money. and because in the US are even more people hustling for motorsport as hustling for money. and with the local dealer law. it sums up to madness.
i do blame PCNA a bit. for sure there would be a way to "teach" some of the dealers. less discounts etc. but all this hate and bad blood for a couple of GT cars? if there are 12x 911 on each GT car; as CJ said. than there will be 50 P cars in total vs. 1 GT car.? better keeping the dealer (and his brother in law) happy with the profit of their flipped GT cars.
who is guilty? maybe we? the funky porsche brand ambassadors? never met so many cool guys on one spot to speak about all different ingredients of driving emotions as i meet during P events. Maybe during a Caterham or Miata meeting it feels similar.
For sure not at a Lambo or F event.so who is guilty? i tell you. those german engineers and the brand history!
Heaven forbid that marketing and sales people of P will get as "clever" as the italians.
04-05-2018, 01:00 PM
#63
Drifting
I've only been in the Porsche game for 10 years, but it seems that since GT cars have become status symbols vs cars built for the track junkies, obtaining them has become more challenging. Add to that the seemingly never ending spike in used vintage Porsches, and suddenly people of significant wealth want a car that doesn't really match with its intended use. Also, these GT cars have become quite user friendly- my 991.2 GT3 is more comfy to drive on a daily basis then my prior 991.1 4S. Just some thoughts. My dealer was too small to get me a GT2. placed an order but it was never fulfilled. Sadly I track my cars, so would have been fascinating to actually get a GT2. But my 991.1 RS is just amazing, so cant wait until my 991.2 arrives in fall!
04-05-2018, 03:27 PM
#64
It really all just comes down to GREED and a lack of ETHICS... and proves only that Porsche dealers are no different than pretty much everybody these days in modern society.
04-05-2018, 03:31 PM
#65
Rennlist Member
For those that are of the opinion that the dealers are out of line with ADMs, I'll repost what I said in the now moved 'corruption' thread:
Would you accept that you have to buy every car from any brand at msrp only?
Meaning you don't get charged ADM on the low volume/high demand cars, but you have to pay full sticker on a Silverado.
Because you can't have it both ways, and negotiate down when it suits you and call it corruption when the dealer does it through ADM
It's either let the market work itself out or pass a law that says everything is msrp.
Would you accept that you have to buy every car from any brand at msrp only?
Meaning you don't get charged ADM on the low volume/high demand cars, but you have to pay full sticker on a Silverado.
Because you can't have it both ways, and negotiate down when it suits you and call it corruption when the dealer does it through ADM
It's either let the market work itself out or pass a law that says everything is msrp.
04-05-2018, 03:51 PM
#66
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by soulsea
For those that are of the opinion that the dealers are out of line with ADMs, I'll repost what I said in the now moved 'corruption' thread:
Would you accept that you have to buy every car from any brand at msrp only?
Meaning you don't get charged ADM on the low volume/high demand cars, but you have to pay full sticker on a Silverado.
Because you can't have it both ways, and negotiate down when it suits you and call it corruption when the dealer does it through ADM
It's either let the market work itself out or pass a law that says everything is msrp.
Would you accept that you have to buy every car from any brand at msrp only?
Meaning you don't get charged ADM on the low volume/high demand cars, but you have to pay full sticker on a Silverado.
Because you can't have it both ways, and negotiate down when it suits you and call it corruption when the dealer does it through ADM
It's either let the market work itself out or pass a law that says everything is msrp.
There is a reason the car buying experience is universally bad.
04-05-2018, 03:54 PM
#67
Rennlist Member
And I can guarantee you that every dealer of every brand in the US will take you up an that deal.
Here's you GT3 at sticker, and here's your Panamera/Silverado/Focus/Camry at sticker ... no negotiation either up or down by either party.
Heck they do it already ... how many people get told if you want a GT3 allocation you have to buy an outgoing gen Cayenne Turbo at sticker.
Here's you GT3 at sticker, and here's your Panamera/Silverado/Focus/Camry at sticker ... no negotiation either up or down by either party.
Heck they do it already ... how many people get told if you want a GT3 allocation you have to buy an outgoing gen Cayenne Turbo at sticker.
04-05-2018, 04:00 PM
#68
04-05-2018, 04:08 PM
#69
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
For those that are of the opinion that the dealers are out of line with ADMs, I'll repost what I said in the now moved 'corruption' thread:
Would you accept that you have to buy every car from any brand at msrp only?
Meaning you don't get charged ADM on the low volume/high demand cars, but you have to pay full sticker on a Silverado.
Because you can't have it both ways, and negotiate down when it suits you and call it corruption when the dealer does it through ADM
It's either let the market work itself out or pass a law that says everything is msrp.
Would you accept that you have to buy every car from any brand at msrp only?
Meaning you don't get charged ADM on the low volume/high demand cars, but you have to pay full sticker on a Silverado.
Because you can't have it both ways, and negotiate down when it suits you and call it corruption when the dealer does it through ADM
It's either let the market work itself out or pass a law that says everything is msrp.
The answer to that is a resounding YES. No more games. If you don't like the price, don't buy it. No different than most everything else we buy. If the car isn't selling they can drop the price and put it on sale. No smoke and mirrors. No old ladies getting taken for a ride.
There is a reason the car buying experience is universally bad.
There is a reason the car buying experience is universally bad.
And I can guarantee you that every dealer of every brand in the US will take you up an that deal.
Here's you GT3 at sticker, and here's your Panamera/Silverado/Focus/Camry at sticker ... no negotiation either up or down by either party.
Heck they do it already ... how many people get told if you want a GT3 allocation you have to buy an outgoing gen Cayenne Turbo at sticker.
Here's you GT3 at sticker, and here's your Panamera/Silverado/Focus/Camry at sticker ... no negotiation either up or down by either party.
Heck they do it already ... how many people get told if you want a GT3 allocation you have to buy an outgoing gen Cayenne Turbo at sticker.
As to those railing against ADMs, have you never paid below MSRP? Or bargained for it? Should we call it "ACM" or "adjusted customer markdown"?
If somehow the car gods bestowed upon you the power to buy all cars at MSRP, would you take that gambit?
Yes, you'd get call the GT3, RS, etc. at MSRP. But how would you feel about buying a Special Limited Executive Edition Panamera with deviated stitching and embossed Porsche crests everywhere including the trunk at MSRP? Ok, with that? And when we say all cars, we mean all cars. So, ok, buying that 2018 Buick Regal for MSRP?
What's fair is only fair, I suppose. No ADM, means no ACM.
04-05-2018, 04:32 PM
#70
Platinum Dealership
Rennlist
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as I stated in 2016 with the 991RS thing going nuts on everyone's wallet...
the PDK inclusion into GT cars invited MUCH wealthier individuals who are not "track dudes" or "skilled drivers" which kept the 996/997 GT cars going ONLY to hardcore dudes or hardcore collectors.
Once it went PDK, then all the guys waiting in line for a 458.488/huratron/Aventaghini in unison: "OH DAMN IT HAS A WING AND MSRP IS AROUND 200? I CAN AFFORD 299! I'll go snap it up!"
likewise volume etc.
cannot have limited production AND 100% satisfaction. impossible. Cannot have tons of production and 75%+ retained value (911 Turbo) - cannot have CONTINUOUS production and retained value (R8)
The Demand -1 model, perfected 20 years ago by Ferrari has now evolved into Demand -90% for some models with certain brands. That's how they entice dealers to overspend on facilities (which are worthless investments...better to spend putting in more service stalls for 20% the price)
the PDK inclusion into GT cars invited MUCH wealthier individuals who are not "track dudes" or "skilled drivers" which kept the 996/997 GT cars going ONLY to hardcore dudes or hardcore collectors.
Once it went PDK, then all the guys waiting in line for a 458.488/huratron/Aventaghini in unison: "OH DAMN IT HAS A WING AND MSRP IS AROUND 200? I CAN AFFORD 299! I'll go snap it up!"
likewise volume etc.
cannot have limited production AND 100% satisfaction. impossible. Cannot have tons of production and 75%+ retained value (911 Turbo) - cannot have CONTINUOUS production and retained value (R8)
The Demand -1 model, perfected 20 years ago by Ferrari has now evolved into Demand -90% for some models with certain brands. That's how they entice dealers to overspend on facilities (which are worthless investments...better to spend putting in more service stalls for 20% the price)
04-05-2018, 05:08 PM
#71
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by soulsea
And I can guarantee you that every dealer of every brand in the US will take you up an that deal.
Here's you GT3 at sticker, and here's your Panamera/Silverado/Focus/Camry at sticker ... no negotiation either up or down by either party.
Heck they do it already ... how many people get told if you want a GT3 allocation you have to buy an outgoing gen Cayenne Turbo at sticker.
Here's you GT3 at sticker, and here's your Panamera/Silverado/Focus/Camry at sticker ... no negotiation either up or down by either party.
Heck they do it already ... how many people get told if you want a GT3 allocation you have to buy an outgoing gen Cayenne Turbo at sticker.
Why do you think that dealers are so scared of Tesla's sales model and are trying to shut them down?? It's NOT because they care about the consumer.
Why are we suddenly talking about forcing people to buy one car to get a other car? That has nothing to do with your proposal. Go back and read your post.
Again, no games. No smoke and mirrors. Whatever the price is for the car is what what it shows on the window sticker. I have no problem with that. If the car won't sell you can put it on sale. Just like any other store. How much of a pain in the *** would it be to have to bargain for everything single thing you buy, which is what you seem to prefer? Third world countries like to do it that way.
04-05-2018, 05:23 PM
#72
Rennlist Member
Why are we suddenly talking about forcing people to buy one car to get a other car? That has nothing to do with your proposal. Go back and read your post.
Again, no games. No smoke and mirrors. Whatever the price is for the car is what what it shows on the window sticker. I have no problem with that. If the car won't sell you can put it on sale. Just like any other store. How much of a pain in the *** would it be to have to bargain for everything single thing you buy, which is what you seem to prefer?
Again, no games. No smoke and mirrors. Whatever the price is for the car is what what it shows on the window sticker. I have no problem with that. If the car won't sell you can put it on sale. Just like any other store. How much of a pain in the *** would it be to have to bargain for everything single thing you buy, which is what you seem to prefer?
It's either both you and the dealer have the opportunity to adjust prices upwards and downwards or neither of you have that opportunity. What you want is a cap at the top defined by msrp but you still want to be able to buy things at a discount. Everyone would want that too, it's just not how capitalism works.
Again, every dealer in the country would take the deal of selling the few models they can get ADM for at msrp if you're willing to buy all their ordinary models at msrp ... they'd make so much more money that way and you'd lose so much more money.
Here's an example of what you're proposing. Let's say hypothetically that we take a KBB used car price as an msrp type indicator as both are currently guidelines and not set absolute prices ... now you go to sell your car but you're not allowed to ask for more than KBB, even though you might have a buyer that is willing to pay more. Would you accept that?
04-05-2018, 05:28 PM
#73
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by soulsea
You don't seem to understand the concept of a double standard and that you can't have it both ways in a free market society.
It's either both you and the dealer have the opportunity to adjust prices upwards and downwards or neither of you have that opportunity. What you want a cap at the top defined by msrp but you still want to be able to buy things at a discount. Everyone would want that too, it's just not how capitalism works.
Again, every dealer in the country would take the deal of selling the few models they can get ADM for at msrp if you're willing to buy all their ordinary models at msrp ... they'd make so much more money that way and you'd lose so much more money.
It's either both you and the dealer have the opportunity to adjust prices upwards and downwards or neither of you have that opportunity. What you want a cap at the top defined by msrp but you still want to be able to buy things at a discount. Everyone would want that too, it's just not how capitalism works.
Again, every dealer in the country would take the deal of selling the few models they can get ADM for at msrp if you're willing to buy all their ordinary models at msrp ... they'd make so much more money that way and you'd lose so much more money.
Im not demanding or negotiating a discount. Have you ever heard of a 'sale'? There are a lot of them the day after thanksgiving
I'll ask you again. Why is NADA afraid of Tesla?
04-05-2018, 05:35 PM
#74
Rennlist Member
You don't seem to understand how every other retail store works. Have you ever bought anything from a store before?
Im not demanding or negotiating a discount. Have you ever heard of a 'sale'? There are a lot of them the day after thanksgiving
I'll ask you again. Why is NADA afraid of Tesla?
Im not demanding or negotiating a discount. Have you ever heard of a 'sale'? There are a lot of them the day after thanksgiving
I'll ask you again. Why is NADA afraid of Tesla?
Btw, I don't want anyone to think that I'm not as aggravated by the situation as everyone else or that I am shilling for dealers ... I'm just pointing out the flawed logic.
04-05-2018, 05:43 PM
#75
Nordschleife Master
This whole 'free market society' that so many of you guys tout is such crap. If you really thought that is how it works here, I want to see you try to bargain your way through every single restaurant, grocery store, retail store. How exhausting and annoying would that be? It would be about as exhausting and annoying as it is when any of us go to a car dealer to buy a car. Yes, it's a free market, but that doesn't mean having to bargain for everything is the best way to do things.
You are confusing 'free market' with just a way of doing business that is better.
You are confusing 'free market' with just a way of doing business that is better.