Tale of a GT2RS Allocation
04-05-2018, 05:44 PM
#76
Nordschleife Master
You are using the wrong examples to make your point ... we're talking about one of the very few products out there that appreciate in value after purchase, hence why so many people are flipping these cars. Are you going to make that illegal too? Or is it ok for flippers to do it but dealers can't?
Btw, I don't want anyone to think that I'm not as aggravated by the situation as everyone else or that I am shilling for dealers ... I'm just pointing out the flawed logic.
Btw, I don't want anyone to think that I'm not as aggravated by the situation as everyone else or that I am shilling for dealers ... I'm just pointing out the flawed logic.
and this the crux of the problem.
You believe these cars appreciate. That is a FATAL assumption.
As far as flippers go, 2 wrongs don't make a right.
04-05-2018, 05:52 PM
#78
Rennlist Member
What in the world are you talking about?
It's not an assumption it's a fact and even if it were it would hardly be fatal. Heck used 991.1 3RS are still going over sticker and that's with tons of them made and and new version being announced.
Yes one day this will stop and many people will be stuck holding the bag ... but that day isn't here. If it were we wouldn't be having a conversation about ADMs nor would this subforum be inundated by adm and allocation threads. And as much as I look forward to that day, it would also signal that the economy is in the tank.
It's not an assumption it's a fact and even if it were it would hardly be fatal. Heck used 991.1 3RS are still going over sticker and that's with tons of them made and and new version being announced.
Yes one day this will stop and many people will be stuck holding the bag ... but that day isn't here. If it were we wouldn't be having a conversation about ADMs nor would this subforum be inundated by adm and allocation threads. And as much as I look forward to that day, it would also signal that the economy is in the tank.
04-05-2018, 06:36 PM
#80
Orthojoe, I don’t think you are hearing the unbiased point of view. If you take EVERY car sold, they would average below sticker. Dealers and manufacturers would gladly give up the ADMs on a couple cars if they could average sticker on them all.
The result of averaging less than sticker is the consumer on average pays less than sticker. There’s only two expensive goods regular people buy and those are the two that involve haggling.
It it is very hard to see both sides because people are wired to look out for themselves. Even though on average the dealer gives on 99 out of 100 cars, all you can see is the one that costs you. The other 99, the market is aok.
As for why dealers fear Tesla, it’s because they don’t have dealers!
The result of averaging less than sticker is the consumer on average pays less than sticker. There’s only two expensive goods regular people buy and those are the two that involve haggling.
It it is very hard to see both sides because people are wired to look out for themselves. Even though on average the dealer gives on 99 out of 100 cars, all you can see is the one that costs you. The other 99, the market is aok.
As for why dealers fear Tesla, it’s because they don’t have dealers!
04-05-2018, 06:43 PM
#81
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by CHADW
Orthojoe, I don’t think you are hearing the unbiased point of view. If you take EVERY car sold, they would average below sticker. Dealers and manufacturers would gladly give up the ADMs on a couple cars if they could average sticker on them all.
The result of averaging less than sticker is the consumer on average pays less than sticker. There’s only two expensive goods regular people buy and those are the two that involve haggling.
It it is very hard to see both sides because people are wired to look out for themselves. Even though on average the dealer gives on 99 out of 100 cars, all you can see is the one that costs you. The other 99, the market is aok.
As for why dealers fear Tesla, it’s because they don’t have dealers!
The result of averaging less than sticker is the consumer on average pays less than sticker. There’s only two expensive goods regular people buy and those are the two that involve haggling.
It it is very hard to see both sides because people are wired to look out for themselves. Even though on average the dealer gives on 99 out of 100 cars, all you can see is the one that costs you. The other 99, the market is aok.
As for why dealers fear Tesla, it’s because they don’t have dealers!
I'm talking about the car buying process as a whole. The experience is terrible. The process is not transparent. The whole negotiation thing is baked into the price. Change the system and the msrp prices will change too.
04-05-2018, 07:02 PM
#82
You are assuming that I'm selfishly only thinking about getting a GT car at msrp. That isn't the goal, but would be a consequence of a better system.
I'm talking about the car buying process as a whole. The experience is terrible. The process is not transparent. The whole negotiation thing is baked into the price. Change the system and the msrp prices will change too.
I'm talking about the car buying process as a whole. The experience is terrible. The process is not transparent. The whole negotiation thing is baked into the price. Change the system and the msrp prices will change too.
Think smaller, what about sneakers that sell for over sticker? Sometimes a shoe is very well received and they don’t make enough, either by accident or even on purpose. What should happen, the manufacturer raise the price, the stores raise the price or the first people in buy them and some flip them? You probably don’t care because it’s not enough money to bother you. But it’s the same thing when it comes to Porsches, including thousands of people that also will barely miss the ADM money, at least while things are good.
it seems like a big deal because it’s a big deal to you. Porsche can’t make enough cars, ask every dealer. Someone is going to profit on a hot car and someone is going to lose on a cold one, be it the mfr, the dealer or the buyer. The more efficient the market the more this is shared by the three groups but it all averages out.
04-05-2018, 07:28 PM
#83
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by CHADW
[left]If you don’t have faith in the car buying process now, you don’t want to give up your ability to negotiate price and leave it to the manufacturers to set! I’m not sure what you are looking for other than personal access and a deal on a limited luxury good. You understand everyone can not achieve this access and deal.
I WANT the manufacturer to set the price and I have NO negotiating power. It's the dealers that are the problem. Tesla's model is the solution
I'm only looking for a fair process for all.
I have only paid msrp for my GT cars. It's a complicated process that doesn't need to be.
Don't worry, you guys won't need to hear from me much longer. I'm tired of the same bull****. Once I get my RS, I'm done. I'm racing now and don't need the latest de car anymore.
04-05-2018, 07:40 PM
#84
I don’t know about the “you people” but I think you will find you have not been practicing what you preach. Look at the cars you have bought in the last five years. Two things:
One, I bet you averaged paying below msrp.
Two, if you didn’t negotiate with the Porsche dealer and paid full retail for all those cars, I bet he would call you to tell you your allocation was ready.
One, I bet you averaged paying below msrp.
Two, if you didn’t negotiate with the Porsche dealer and paid full retail for all those cars, I bet he would call you to tell you your allocation was ready.
04-05-2018, 07:49 PM
#85
Rennlist Member
Here's an interesting example that's actually more akin to what Joe is trying to convey ...
Take Rolex as a company ... just like Porsche they have a whole bunch of models that are have average or low demand that ADs are stuck with for months and years, and they have models like ceramic Daytonas or blue Sky Dwellers that are in super high demand. In fact people go and beg for for those models from their AD and hope that they can get one just like they do with Porsche and their GT models. Now Rolex ADs cannot sell at over msrp, but are able to slightly discount their ordinary models (I think official stores aren't even allowed to discount). Basically exactly the business model that Joe is suggesting.
However the net result is that you go in Rolexforums or any other watch site and ceramic Daytonas are $19k instead of their msrp and blue sky dwellers were trading at $21k last time I checked. So as a consumer you end up paying the ADM one way or the other. What difference does it make if you pay it to the dealer/AD or to a flipper? None obviously. This is where the 'free market' plays itself out and there's nothing that Joe suggests that can change that as long as demand is greater than supply, it's only a matter of who's pocket the money goes into, but for the purchaser the price is the same either way.
Take Rolex as a company ... just like Porsche they have a whole bunch of models that are have average or low demand that ADs are stuck with for months and years, and they have models like ceramic Daytonas or blue Sky Dwellers that are in super high demand. In fact people go and beg for for those models from their AD and hope that they can get one just like they do with Porsche and their GT models. Now Rolex ADs cannot sell at over msrp, but are able to slightly discount their ordinary models (I think official stores aren't even allowed to discount). Basically exactly the business model that Joe is suggesting.
However the net result is that you go in Rolexforums or any other watch site and ceramic Daytonas are $19k instead of their msrp and blue sky dwellers were trading at $21k last time I checked. So as a consumer you end up paying the ADM one way or the other. What difference does it make if you pay it to the dealer/AD or to a flipper? None obviously. This is where the 'free market' plays itself out and there's nothing that Joe suggests that can change that as long as demand is greater than supply, it's only a matter of who's pocket the money goes into, but for the purchaser the price is the same either way.
04-05-2018, 07:52 PM
#86
In many markets; (Europe?, Canada?) aren’t the dealers forbidden by law from selling above MSRP, BUT are not forbidden from selling below that price should they decide to. It is still a ‘Free’ market in almost all respects except for the fact that there is a price ‘cap’. I doubt that the vast majority of Porsche dealerships in those areas are starving or going out of business.
The Porsche GT market is broken plain and simple, when enthusiasts wanting to buy these cars to primarily drive the snot out of them can’t find one to buy, or are forced to buy a car without the options they want/need because it’s been dealership ordered and then one has to pay over MSRP due to an ADM.
Unlike many of you I’ve only owned two new Porsches, but the company has lost two sales to me since I was unable to obtain an allocation for a 991.1 GT3 and now a 991.2 version. I decided to purchase other excellent high performance vehicles, and given how happy I was and am with those cars, I doubt I’ll ever bother wasting my time thinking about buying a GT variant in the future.
But they are wonderful cars, so congrats to all that own them.
Bish
The Porsche GT market is broken plain and simple, when enthusiasts wanting to buy these cars to primarily drive the snot out of them can’t find one to buy, or are forced to buy a car without the options they want/need because it’s been dealership ordered and then one has to pay over MSRP due to an ADM.
Unlike many of you I’ve only owned two new Porsches, but the company has lost two sales to me since I was unable to obtain an allocation for a 991.1 GT3 and now a 991.2 version. I decided to purchase other excellent high performance vehicles, and given how happy I was and am with those cars, I doubt I’ll ever bother wasting my time thinking about buying a GT variant in the future.
But they are wonderful cars, so congrats to all that own them.
Bish
04-05-2018, 07:55 PM
#87
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by CHADW
I don’t know about the “you people” but I think you will find you have not been practicing what you preach. Look at the cars you have bought in the last five years. Two things:
One, I bet you averaged paying below msrp.
Two, if you didn’t negotiate with the Porsche dealer and paid full retail for all those cars, I bet he would call you to tell you your allocation was ready.
One, I bet you averaged paying below msrp.
Two, if you didn’t negotiate with the Porsche dealer and paid full retail for all those cars, I bet he would call you to tell you your allocation was ready.
I don't buy any other cars from Porsche other than GT cars.
Ford X plan price
Msrp for Subaru BRZ
Nissan VPP pricing
Bmw manufacturer lease deal
I hate the game. I don't negotiate because it's a waste of my TIME. If a dealer doesn't give me a price I like the first time. I walk.
Sometimes I do have to negotiate. I prefer a system where that isn't an option. What don't you get?
04-05-2018, 07:55 PM
#88
I have only paid MSRP from my dealer. No trades, no BS. I service my cars there twice a year (even when not necessary). Now after two a$$hats flipped their GT2Rs’ for 150k over, my dealer is now an ADM dealer ( why should they leave money on the table). My incoming car has an ADM. I am upset about the ADM but I understand my dealers frustration and the markups (although I don’t agree with it).
04-05-2018, 08:00 PM
#89
Rennlist Member
Agreed, and Porsche could solve that very easily by either expanding the factory or building a new one.
The fact that they haven't is an indication to me that this is exactly how they want the market to be, counting on the hype and demand of the GT models to trickle down to their other products. I'm guessing that despite how frustrated all of us are by this system, it must be working for them. But it's obvious that many people are walking away from the brand, customers that they will sorely miss when times are leaner, for people don't forget how they get treated by a company, and rightfully so.
The fact that they haven't is an indication to me that this is exactly how they want the market to be, counting on the hype and demand of the GT models to trickle down to their other products. I'm guessing that despite how frustrated all of us are by this system, it must be working for them. But it's obvious that many people are walking away from the brand, customers that they will sorely miss when times are leaner, for people don't forget how they get treated by a company, and rightfully so.
04-05-2018, 08:16 PM
#90
Nice try.
I don't buy any other cars from Porsche other than GT cars.
Ford X plan price
Msrp for Subaru BRZ
Nissan VPP pricing
Bmw manufacturer lease deal
I hate the game. I don't negotiate because it's a waste of my TIME. If a dealer doesn't give me a price I like the first time. I walk.
Sometimes I do have to negotiate. I prefer a system where that isn't an option. What don't you get?
I don't buy any other cars from Porsche other than GT cars.
Ford X plan price
Msrp for Subaru BRZ
Nissan VPP pricing
Bmw manufacturer lease deal
I hate the game. I don't negotiate because it's a waste of my TIME. If a dealer doesn't give me a price I like the first time. I walk.
Sometimes I do have to negotiate. I prefer a system where that isn't an option. What don't you get?
Seeing your entitled hissy fit you just posted I’m sure you are a real pleasure to deal with at the dealership as well.
You still can’t see how hypocritical your outlook is? You want everything at market (or below) until it doesn’t work in your favor.
Good luck on the other side.
As as I said, there is no “fix.” It’s supply and demand. The money will flow somewhere, whether it’s to the mfr, the dealer or the consumer. The Rolex example is another good one.