OT: 0-60mph in 1.9 sec. for $200k. How does Tesla Roadster Change Things?
11-17-2017 | 06:22 PM
#77
Rennlist Member
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 4,040
Likes: 881
From: West Los Angeles & Truckee, CA
Musk was and is able to built stuff like spaceX, Tesla, etc.
you do not need to do the innovation by yourself. but you have to see and be able to imagine it and you have to focus and to be able to motivate the people, stuff, investors which make it finally work.
he is far ahead of myself in that case. and i truly respect that.
but to praise cars which do not even somewhow exist in real. doesn´t make sense at all.
to say the European Car Industry have nothing to hold against it. currently against what? red numbers? they are just keep working more in peace and quiet. nevertheless - currently - Tesla is the only real deal when it´s about e-cars. but lets see what will be within 3 years.
I would love to see Tesla in black numbers competing with Porsche, MB, BMW, Audi in the future.
you do not need to do the innovation by yourself. but you have to see and be able to imagine it and you have to focus and to be able to motivate the people, stuff, investors which make it finally work.
he is far ahead of myself in that case. and i truly respect that.
but to praise cars which do not even somewhow exist in real. doesn´t make sense at all.
to say the European Car Industry have nothing to hold against it. currently against what? red numbers? they are just keep working more in peace and quiet. nevertheless - currently - Tesla is the only real deal when it´s about e-cars. but lets see what will be within 3 years.
I would love to see Tesla in black numbers competing with Porsche, MB, BMW, Audi in the future.
11-17-2017 | 06:30 PM
#78
Rennlist Member
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 13,422
Likes: 4,606
From: Mid-Atlantic (on land, not in the middle of the ocean)
I'll add this. When I test drove a Model S on very demanding roads, I drove my own C63 back to back on the same roads. I love the C63, and plan to never sell it. But the Model S was a better car, as both a sports car, and as a car in general. Those batteries add weight, but lowering the CG makes a big difference in handling and braking, and all that torque/power helps make the weight less of a factor too. I'm not really a car guy, but I like driving. I really enjoyed driving the Tesla.
11-17-2017 | 06:32 PM
#79
Rennlist Member
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,728
Likes: 708
I think that the Mission E is going to be a game changer. Take a Tesla, throw out the bad, amplify the good and put the backing of the Porsche empire behind it and that's a recipe for some serious success. Having driven a Model S a bunch of times, it's a very appealing vehicle to me for a commuter car. And one that, despite it's flaws, is fun enough to not bore you senseless. It's not just about the Ludicrous mode acceleration. The thing I like about it is the precision of speed. I equated it to driving the world's most responsive NA engine. There's no downshifting now power curve, not nothing. You move your foot, you change speed. You take your foot out, you slow down. I loved it.
Once companies like Porsche put their full might behind performance EV's, the tide will start shifting faster.
Once companies like Porsche put their full might behind performance EV's, the tide will start shifting faster.
There are two main reasons I see for this, one technical and the other economic.
Taking the technical first, Tesla truly is a technology company that happens to be making cars. Traditional car companies lean very heavily on their Tier two suppliers for innovation and technology, often waiting for them to bring new systems to market and then trying to integrate them after the fact. This worked well on the slower automotive product cycle, but technology moves much faster. There's no question that Tesla has over-promised with regards to self-driving, but there is also no question that the have a real and very significant lead in the area over everyone else largely due to their fundamentally different approach. As the percentage of a car that's electronics and software increases their advantage will increase even further unless the rest of the industry can pivot. Given that most car manufactures previously saw the engine as the pinnacle of their technology (and were often willing to outsource nearly everything else) making a timely pivot seems near impossible. Meanwhile the old tech that Porsche is good at is relatively easy to buy- Tesla simply threw money at a bunch of Lotus chassis engineers, etc- they can clearly afford to buy a very competent organization at current valuations.
Economically Tesla has a separate huge advantage in the near and medium term: they don't need to make money. Porsche engineers were complaining about this fact when the Mission E was on the drawing board: their shareholders demand they make at least 20% on everything they sell, while Tesla's decidedly do not. That seems to give Tesla engineers an extra 30% budget, at a given price-point. If Tesla is successful in driving the price down through volume and vertical integration that might turn into a smaller lasting advantage, but for now the math seems simple: Tesla will sell you a car for roughly what they make it for (or less) while Porsche most certainly will not. Thus even with the weight of the "Porsche empire" I would not discount Tesla's in the marketplace for some time.
None of which is to say that Tesla's stock isn't overvalued, but personally my money's not on the Mission E vs Tesla's offerings in the same time frame.
11-17-2017 | 07:02 PM
#80
Advanced
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
From: San Francisco Bay Area
Having owned two Model S cars (2013 P85 and 2015 P85D) and a Model X 90D, I agree that many here are underestimating the capabilities and fun factor of these cars.
I first drove a Model S in 2013, fully expecting to hate the car. No shifting my own gears? No sound? Heavy as a truck? No way. I'd spend the last 10 years instructing at HPDEs and racing with the SCCA. "I'm a car guy, not an iPhone-on-wheels-guy!" It took me 60 seconds into the test drive to realize just how wrong I was.
Nearly 5 years later, I've *just* re-entered the ICE world. Primarily thanks to my personal finances, combined with my love for hanging the tail out (which isn't possible in a P85D) and a dash of engine note FOMO, I now have a GT4 in the garage and a GT3 on the way. I will say, however, that I never got bored of the P85D's kick in a straight line, grip coming out of corners, relative poise on twisty roads, or ability to transport the family in style.
Perhaps some of you would get bored after a few miles. Perhaps you also have souls that are more difficult to penetrate than mine.
Either way, Tesla has a unique and amazing offering, and I think it'd be a grave mistake to dismiss the new roadster off hand until you've tried it for yourself. Looking forward to seeing the discussion re-start in 2021 
Cheers,
Kevin
I first drove a Model S in 2013, fully expecting to hate the car. No shifting my own gears? No sound? Heavy as a truck? No way. I'd spend the last 10 years instructing at HPDEs and racing with the SCCA. "I'm a car guy, not an iPhone-on-wheels-guy!" It took me 60 seconds into the test drive to realize just how wrong I was.
Nearly 5 years later, I've *just* re-entered the ICE world. Primarily thanks to my personal finances, combined with my love for hanging the tail out (which isn't possible in a P85D) and a dash of engine note FOMO, I now have a GT4 in the garage and a GT3 on the way. I will say, however, that I never got bored of the P85D's kick in a straight line, grip coming out of corners, relative poise on twisty roads, or ability to transport the family in style.
Perhaps some of you would get bored after a few miles. Perhaps you also have souls that are more difficult to penetrate than mine.
Either way, Tesla has a unique and amazing offering, and I think it'd be a grave mistake to dismiss the new roadster off hand until you've tried it for yourself. Looking forward to seeing the discussion re-start in 2021 Cheers,
Kevin
11-17-2017 | 07:29 PM
#81
Rennlist Member
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 5,244
Likes: 1,352
From: Rocky Mountains
I don't have much faith that Porsche is going to be able to do it better. Different, sure, but I think many here are under-rating Tesla technically, and it will prove much more difficult for mainstream manufactures to overcome than some assume.
There are two main reasons I see for this, one technical and the other economic.
Taking the technical first, Tesla truly is a technology company that happens to be making cars. Traditional car companies lean very heavily on their Tier two suppliers for innovation and technology, often waiting for them to bring new systems to market and then trying to integrate them after the fact. This worked well on the slower automotive product cycle, but technology moves much faster. There's no question that Tesla has over-promised with regards to self-driving, but there is also no question that the have a real and very significant lead in the area over everyone else largely due to their fundamentally different approach. As the percentage of a car that's electronics and software increases their advantage will increase even further unless the rest of the industry can pivot. Given that most car manufactures previously saw the engine as the pinnacle of their technology (and were often willing to outsource nearly everything else) making a timely pivot seems near impossible. Meanwhile the old tech that Porsche is good at is relatively easy to buy- Tesla simply threw money at a bunch of Lotus chassis engineers, etc- they can clearly afford to buy a very competent organization at current valuations.
Economically Tesla has a separate huge advantage in the near and medium term: they don't need to make money. Porsche engineers were complaining about this fact when the Mission E was on the drawing board: their shareholders demand they make at least 20% on everything they sell, while Tesla's decidedly do not. That seems to give Tesla engineers an extra 30% budget, at a given price-point. If Tesla is successful in driving the price down through volume and vertical integration that might turn into a smaller lasting advantage, but for now the math seems simple: Tesla will sell you a car for roughly what they make it for (or less) while Porsche most certainly will not. Thus even with the weight of the "Porsche empire" I would not discount Tesla's in the marketplace for some time.
None of which is to say that Tesla's stock isn't overvalued, but personally my money's not on the Mission E vs Tesla's offerings in the same time frame.
There are two main reasons I see for this, one technical and the other economic.
Taking the technical first, Tesla truly is a technology company that happens to be making cars. Traditional car companies lean very heavily on their Tier two suppliers for innovation and technology, often waiting for them to bring new systems to market and then trying to integrate them after the fact. This worked well on the slower automotive product cycle, but technology moves much faster. There's no question that Tesla has over-promised with regards to self-driving, but there is also no question that the have a real and very significant lead in the area over everyone else largely due to their fundamentally different approach. As the percentage of a car that's electronics and software increases their advantage will increase even further unless the rest of the industry can pivot. Given that most car manufactures previously saw the engine as the pinnacle of their technology (and were often willing to outsource nearly everything else) making a timely pivot seems near impossible. Meanwhile the old tech that Porsche is good at is relatively easy to buy- Tesla simply threw money at a bunch of Lotus chassis engineers, etc- they can clearly afford to buy a very competent organization at current valuations.
Economically Tesla has a separate huge advantage in the near and medium term: they don't need to make money. Porsche engineers were complaining about this fact when the Mission E was on the drawing board: their shareholders demand they make at least 20% on everything they sell, while Tesla's decidedly do not. That seems to give Tesla engineers an extra 30% budget, at a given price-point. If Tesla is successful in driving the price down through volume and vertical integration that might turn into a smaller lasting advantage, but for now the math seems simple: Tesla will sell you a car for roughly what they make it for (or less) while Porsche most certainly will not. Thus even with the weight of the "Porsche empire" I would not discount Tesla's in the marketplace for some time.
None of which is to say that Tesla's stock isn't overvalued, but personally my money's not on the Mission E vs Tesla's offerings in the same time frame.
There are rules of physics that can’t be broken, particularly weight, but I still expect the mission E to handle better than any other electric car at the time of its release. Naturally, I still don’t expect it will handle as well as a 911.
I’m taking delivery of a model 3 next year, but keeping an eye on what Porsche does with the mission E, two years later, and will trade one car for the other if Porsche nails the Mission E.
Last edited by Drifting; 11-17-2017 at 08:01 PM.
11-17-2017 | 07:48 PM
#82
Rennlist Member
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 836
Likes: 18
From: SoCal
Interesting that one of the important specs was missing, the weight. Considering the >600 mile range, I assume they stuck bunch of batteries in there. It will be heavy. Building a fast roadster and a true sports car are 2 different things. The old SL65 AMG comes to mind. I hope Tesla surprises everyone and instead of building a fast dragster, they build something with the ability to corner. Otherwise, this car will be a hard sell, at least for the sports car enthusiasts.
No question though, it looks stunning and awesome on paper.
No question though, it looks stunning and awesome on paper.
11-17-2017 | 08:00 PM
#83
Rennlist Member
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 13,422
Likes: 4,606
From: Mid-Atlantic (on land, not in the middle of the ocean)
Interesting that one of the important specs was missing, the weight. Considering the >600 mile range, I assume they stuck bunch of batteries in there. It will be heavy. Building a fast roadster and a true sports car are 2 different things. The old SL65 AMG comes to mind. I hope Tesla surprises everyone and instead of building a fast dragster, they build something with the ability to corner. Otherwise, this car will be a hard sell, at least for the sports car enthusiasts.
No question though, it looks stunning and awesome on paper.
No question though, it looks stunning and awesome on paper.
Added mass will reduce acceleration, but you can compensate by adding power/torque. The other main downside of added mass is putting more demand on the brakes from a heat standpoint, but that tends to not be a big issue for road use. Added mass will also increase energy/fuel consumption, but we don't tend to worry about fuel efficiency with our sports cars.
11-17-2017 | 08:09 PM
#85
Rennlist Member
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 5,244
Likes: 1,352
From: Rocky Mountains
As Pete said, right now Tesla is allowed to cheat on price due to its investors and government tax breaks, but in the future it will need to make a profit. Tesla has and will have great straight line performance, but that headstart will be neutralized if Porsche or another german company make a car with similar straight line performance, but better handling, and the fit/finish expect from german luxury cars.
One of the reasons I'm getting a model 3 next summer instead of a Model S is that the interior/fit finish of tesla is definitely lacking compared to what I'm used to from Porsche/Audi/MB/BMW. I can accept that on a $35,000 model 3, but not a $80-110,000 model S. In the future, tesla will need to up its game in that department as well as the handling if it expects to compete with the established german companies 10 years from now.
11-17-2017 | 08:11 PM
#86
Thread Starter
Race Director
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 10,234
Likes: 1,977
From: Hypercar Invitational
Keep in mind that added mass increases both lateral load from cornering and vertical weight load (which increases grip), so it largely cancels. And if you lower the CG, the transfer of lateral load due to cornering decreases, so you wind up using the grip of the four tires more effectively (since the relationship between grip and vertical load is nonlinear). Lower CG also improves braking because there's less forward transfer of weight during deceleration, so again the tires can be used more efficiently for braking grip.
Added mass will reduce acceleration, but you can compensate by adding power/torque. The other main downside of added mass is putting more demand on the brakes from a heat standpoint, but that tends to not be a big issue for road use. Added mass will also increase energy/fuel consumption, but we don't tend to worry about fuel efficiency with our sports cars.
Added mass will reduce acceleration, but you can compensate by adding power/torque. The other main downside of added mass is putting more demand on the brakes from a heat standpoint, but that tends to not be a big issue for road use. Added mass will also increase energy/fuel consumption, but we don't tend to worry about fuel efficiency with our sports cars.
Last edited by CAlexio; 11-17-2017 at 08:34 PM.
11-17-2017 | 08:14 PM
#87
Race Director
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 13,162
Likes: 3,886
Not in the least. Same feeling about the Mission E. If it actually turns out to be a truly awesome all around car, I'm very interested, though not at $200k. But if all there is to it is a ridiculous 0-60 time, I could care less. And after seeing that video of the Mission E mule wallowing about on the Ring recently, I'm not holding my breath that someone's really gonna produce an all around amazing performing EV just yet..
11-17-2017 | 08:16 PM
#88
Drifting
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,189
Likes: 1
Will depend on 1-price, 2- performance, 3- fit/finish
As Pete said, right now Tesla is allowed to cheat on price due to its investors and government tax breaks, but in the future it will need to make a profit. Tesla has and will have great straight line performance, but that headstart will be neutralized if Porsche or another german company make a car with similar straight line performance, but better handling, and the fit/finish expect from german luxury cars.
One of the reasons I'm getting a model 3 next summer instead of a Model S is that the interior/fit finish of tesla is definitely lacking compared to what I'm used to from Porsche/Audi/MB/BMW. I can accept that on a $35,000 model 3, but not a $80-110,000 model S. In the future, tesla will need to up its game in that department as well as the handling if it expects to compete with the established german companies 10 years from now.
As Pete said, right now Tesla is allowed to cheat on price due to its investors and government tax breaks, but in the future it will need to make a profit. Tesla has and will have great straight line performance, but that headstart will be neutralized if Porsche or another german company make a car with similar straight line performance, but better handling, and the fit/finish expect from german luxury cars.
One of the reasons I'm getting a model 3 next summer instead of a Model S is that the interior/fit finish of tesla is definitely lacking compared to what I'm used to from Porsche/Audi/MB/BMW. I can accept that on a $35,000 model 3, but not a $80-110,000 model S. In the future, tesla will need to up its game in that department as well as the handling if it expects to compete with the established german companies 10 years from now.
11-17-2017 | 08:18 PM
#89
Race Director
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 13,162
Likes: 3,886
This tesla roadster is a genius machine, which will appeal to a much wider audience of casual gearheads. I could see a garage being composed of a model E Porsche sedan or tesla X SUV, this tesla roadster for thrills, and then an old school manual 911. That would complete me.
This is just another example of The Wizard pulling the levers on another curtain, complete with shots of fire, trying to get everyone's focus away from the reality that his company has done nothing but burn money since inception. Cool technology, massively overhyped. Made possible only through OPM.
11-17-2017 | 09:07 PM
#90
Rennlist Member
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 5,659
Likes: 4,008
From: Santa Cruz, CA
I've lived with a Tesla for 4 years (and 911's that entire time) - I prefer the Tesla's for daily driving - and the Porsche's feel "old and clunky" - it's a combination of performance and Tech and constant software updates making the car better than keeps the Tesla in the forefront IMHO - they are no more expensive that a decent/fast Panamera and dramatically better to drive in my opinion. The lack of any actual maintenance on an EV is also very very addicting - and I now see the fallacy of regular maintenance on my existing internal combustion engine (ICE) cars…
also the instant and ample torque and fine grained control you have with the throttle is nothing like you've ever expereinced before - tucking hte car into the apex of Turn 10 at thunderhill and nailing the throttle to have the car leap off the apex to turn 11 is I N T O X I C A T I N G - nothing like it - not even a cup car…too bad it craps out a bit later down the straight as the batteries overheat due to high loads - great awesome best daily driver - terrible terrible track car.
Tesla is like amazon - they could be profitable if they weren't spending so much on ramping other efforts…I'm not entirely sure they deserve the distain wafting off my monitor either…they have in fact sold over 300,000 cars world wide, and by and large the are well regarded and people LOVE the product - this is not 10 fan boys saying they're great - people are plunking down actual money on these things and they aren't entirely dissastified with their purchase - in fact they are enamored with it - and Tesla has decimated luxury sedan sales for the past 3 years putting the german's on notice…
ICE cars in my household have been religated to "recreational" vehnical status - convertible for the wife (Boxster S that she LOVES) and GT3 track toy for me - everything else is electric - I now have over 140,000 EV miles under my belt including road trips and it's really no sweat, and better than a gas car.
oh and by the way - the Model X is a 6,000 lbs 7 seater than can do 0-60 in 2.8 seconds, and the front cockpit and seats are the B E S T front cockpit in the entire industry - the helicopter windshield, EV instant torque, and the low CG handling, and super comfy front two seats make it the most pleasurable car for driving I have ever experienced - and it can embarrass a 911 Turbo S - because, while in theory the Turbo S is 2.8 - it really isn't without proper prep. and a driver that knows what they are doing, where as the Model X is point an shoot, and OMG does it point & shoot! Best SUV for driving ON THE MARKET.
I am looking forward to more EV choices and will seriously consider the Mission E - but the Model S is quite frankly an awesome car, any assertion to the contrary is suspect on the face of it.
also the instant and ample torque and fine grained control you have with the throttle is nothing like you've ever expereinced before - tucking hte car into the apex of Turn 10 at thunderhill and nailing the throttle to have the car leap off the apex to turn 11 is I N T O X I C A T I N G - nothing like it - not even a cup car…too bad it craps out a bit later down the straight as the batteries overheat due to high loads - great awesome best daily driver - terrible terrible track car.
Tesla is like amazon - they could be profitable if they weren't spending so much on ramping other efforts…I'm not entirely sure they deserve the distain wafting off my monitor either…they have in fact sold over 300,000 cars world wide, and by and large the are well regarded and people LOVE the product - this is not 10 fan boys saying they're great - people are plunking down actual money on these things and they aren't entirely dissastified with their purchase - in fact they are enamored with it - and Tesla has decimated luxury sedan sales for the past 3 years putting the german's on notice…
ICE cars in my household have been religated to "recreational" vehnical status - convertible for the wife (Boxster S that she LOVES) and GT3 track toy for me - everything else is electric - I now have over 140,000 EV miles under my belt including road trips and it's really no sweat, and better than a gas car.
oh and by the way - the Model X is a 6,000 lbs 7 seater than can do 0-60 in 2.8 seconds, and the front cockpit and seats are the B E S T front cockpit in the entire industry - the helicopter windshield, EV instant torque, and the low CG handling, and super comfy front two seats make it the most pleasurable car for driving I have ever experienced - and it can embarrass a 911 Turbo S - because, while in theory the Turbo S is 2.8 - it really isn't without proper prep. and a driver that knows what they are doing, where as the Model X is point an shoot, and OMG does it point & shoot! Best SUV for driving ON THE MARKET.
I am looking forward to more EV choices and will seriously consider the Mission E - but the Model S is quite frankly an awesome car, any assertion to the contrary is suspect on the face of it.