Carrera GT

The Porsche driving school has a great drill -- that's surprisingly difficult -- to illustrate the balance of Porsche suspension. The basic idea is to coast at say 30-40 mph, then draw the car into a reducing radius arc, no brakes, no counter steer. As the car slows, the weight goes "forward" (around the arc of the turn) and front axle traction increases as rear axle traction decreases. The car transitions "beautifully" (in the eye of the beholder) from understeer to neutral to incipient oversteer (and the driver has to resist the reflex to counter-steer) and finally the car rotates into oversteer. From behind the wheel, the driver feels like the world is in slow motion. The exercise illustrates how the "snap oversteer" that so many dread about Porsches is nonsense. It's fear of the monster in the dark of a child's bedroom closet. From behind the wheel, the driver has an eternity and the car benignly rotates and continues on the prescribed arc (though doing so sideways and ultimately, backwards.) The lesson learned is that a confident, proficient driver need not fear the pendulum. There is nothing to fear, but fear itself. And moronic legislators and litigators. The root of all evil.

Veloce Raptor

Bob,

Well...again, I have not driven a 991 S, so can't comment on its pointiness. However, it was from reading Porsche's own description of PTV+ on the 991 S that it appeared to be some sort of trail braking substitute and/or enhancer. So while it appears to operate on throttle, it's own description led to the conclusion that it also operated on braking as the car entered a corner.

Agree that TC is way too sensitive on .2 RS's, and also that PSM does want to intervene when trail braking full slicks.

Mike in CA

Bob made the salient point better than I did. PTV acts on the inside rear brake at low and moderate speeds under power. One tip off is the fact that in the description you just quoted it describes how "drive force is distributed to the outside rear wheel"; there is no "drive force" per se when you are braking, only when you are on the accelerator. If you are on the brakes entering a turn or trail braking theough the first half of the turn, PTV has no effect.

Respectfully, I disagree with your assertion that you don't drive into a corner assertively w/o braking unless you are doing 5 mph. Most of the time, in moderate street driving your braking is complete before you enter a corner and you accelerate through it, or on a country road with a 55 mph speed limit you drive into a 45 mph corner without braking at all. Obviously, trail braking isn't even an issue. These are the kind of circumstances where PTV is beneficial and noticeable, and the video that accompanies the explanation gives visual examples. Nothing Bob or I have said is inconsistent with Porsche's explanation of how PTV works.

As I mentioned earlier I have PTV+ in my Cayenne. It's obviously no sports car but it handles really damn well. Typically, on the road, I constantly notice PTV as I'm driving into a turn on the throttle or entering a sweeper while on the gas. I assume it's PTV I'm feeling, because the turn in, response, and precision of the steering is just amazingly better than it has a right to be in any 4500+ pound vehicle.

Veloce Raptor

Mike, it appears we have different definitions of what corner entry is. In my world (the track), corner entry is generally not done on throttle...

Carrera GT

The RS 3.8 PSM is pretty damn good. I respect it as a legit safety aid, not the alarmist, intrusive and over-protective nanny of 997.1 and prior PSMs. If you're finding TC is intrusive and the car is otherwise being well-driven and behaving itself, I'd suggest alignment and balance, or perhaps roll stiffness. On Sport Cups or Hoosiers, it's possible to drive with TC on and not have it dampen the fun. There are some specific cases that I don't think SC/TC can be expected to figure out a plausible strategy. The most obvious example is the Corkscrew at Laguna -- driving those turns "correctly" should surely make any computer think the car is crashing.

If anything, I wish SC and TC could be switched independently. I guess Porsche did their R&D without that separation. Then again, it's 2013. By now, we should have turn by turn programmable aids and brake trim. But I fear the 991 GT cars will have that insidious mode of SC that always lurks in the shadows, waiting to pounce when some software programmer from a few years ago has decided his algorithms will do a better job of things than the driver when things look grim.

mike2727

So glad I joined Rennlist, hardly have any time left for other forums the way this thread is going LOL
Very educatiional though especially for a noob like me

I wonder if the person who mentioned that rear wheel steering would be part of the GT3 specs maybe ment PTV+ ?

For the real track warriors maybe my trackrat is a more suitable alternative, the only luxury is power steering LOL

Time flies this way and hopefully Porsche will reveal the GT3 during the Press days next week Tuesday/Wednesday

Mike

Macca

I just heard from someone in the know that we will see new white (with a lean to the bluish spectrum) as a standard colour on the 991 GT3 launch car. Carrara White had a yellow tinge...

It would be great if they would bring "Maritime Blue" (originally a 1992 964RS colour) back as a standard colour! Surely for the 50th 911 celebration the GT3 and Turbo should introduce a new vision of a retro colour as standard...

Mike in CA

Dave, I don't think that our definition is different, but I do think we are talking apples and oranges. I assume you aren't always on track, that sometimes you drive on the street too. You don't enter corners at the track on the throttle but on the road where the cornering capability of your car far exceeds the speed limits and layout of turns, I'm sure you frequently do. At the track you don't typically drive at slow and moderate speeds either, but on the road you do. Read again Porsche's description of PTV+; it talks about steering response and precision, driving at slow and moderate speeds, driving on a range of surfaces, including rain and snow. PTV+ is primarily an enhancement for street driving (even GT3's are sometimes driven on the street. ) , though any time you are on the gas making a direction change at moderate speed on track it would no doubt have an effect too. I know it would be effective for autox. And as I've said several times, it neither interferes with trail braking or attempts to replace it.

Bob Rouleau

Carrera - TC gets me at the top of T2 cresting a hill at over 100 MPH, it thinks I have wheel spin when I really WANT to put power down. On the flat stuff not an issue - I agree that the Corkscrew would also upset it

Dave, PTV is noticeable when powering out of the corner, i.e post apex when you have your foot down. At corner entry, it does nothing because as you say, we don't usually accelerate to the apex except on nothing corners which we take more or less flat. Based on what I felt, PTV is not a nanny rather a handling enhancement - i.e. it adds to the fun as opposed to spoiling it

Rear wheel sterring would be cool. I felt it in the 918 at Barber, depending on the speed it steers with or contrary to the front wheels. Another nice handling enhancement. I don't think these clever improvements reduce the fun of executing a corner properly, they just let you go faster, like changing to Motons or slicks or better aero.

Serge944

If you want more details on torque vectoring, YouTube videos of "prodrive." They pioneered this technology 15 years ago, and I wouldn't be surprised if Porsche collaborated with them.

Guest89

Maritime is a great color; what I would order PTS on any new Porsche sports car. It is pretty similar to Aqua Blue though, and they know they can charge $$$ for it...

Z356

Wouldn't that be lovely! They hit it out of the park with the 'RS Orange' and 'RS Green' on the MY2007/2008 gt3 RS. These have now iconic status. 'Carrara White' was dragged out of Porsche for the RS by customer demand on MY2008. It was PTS only and required a big premium for doing the trim in 'Black' as well. The plain 'White' RS was the most expensive color combination offered in '08!

I think 'White/Red' was the undisputed winner of the .2 RS popularity contest. Grey/Red followed closely! Aqua was relatively rare to see. PTS played a larger role in the MY2010 and MY2011 than ever before on these gt3 models. Perhaps PTS will again play a big factor in the 991 gt3 and RS!

I also would love to see PAG resurrect a retro 'colour' from the late sixties to put emphasis on the 50th Anniversary. Perhaps they should choose 'Crystal Blue', a special order color which was introduced in 1966 and was offered for several years on the early long hood 911's! See attached photo.

That is right. The R8's smaller rear calipers are the parking brake. The Audi R8 was conceived and developed in the early part of the last decade. It was introduced in 2007 as a MY2008 in the US. It is rather 'dated' in terms of latest 'wiz-bam' technology - other than a special Quattro system with Electronic Differential Locks (EDL) front & rear and the nifty magnetorheological dampers! No PTV in current models or for the revised '14 R8's about to arrive at US dealers!

One of the biggest drawback to an R8 at a 'DE' track event in the US is the fact that Audi does not provide a gt2 type 'sport bucket seats' w. side airbags on any of their models. European and ROW R8 and TTRS markets get an optional Leather Recaro 'sport bucket' with electrical controls at the base! And a very light-weight carbon fibre racing bucket (with no adjustments!) is fitted to the R8 GT model in many world markets! Both of these bucket-type seats don't have side air bags and both are not allowed on Audi's US models! Audi has not seen fit to develop a 'Sport Bucket' with air bags like Porsche has done with its gt2 seat! This puts R8's in the US at a great disadvantage at track events, in contrast to recent Porsche models with the gt2 seats (as found on .2 gt3's, gt2 RS, Spyders, Cayman Rs, GTS, etc).

Of course, the primary weakness of the R8 at the track, in my opinion, is the weight and tendency to oversteer, both not helped by the Quattro system (even if only 30% of traction can be allocated to the front wheels). The oversteer is noticeable less on the lighter v8 than in the heavier v10 models! Racing versions of the R8 are rear wheel drive only! Brakes on the regular R8's do not last at the track as long as those on Porsches, mainly due to the greater job they are forced to do because of the weight! Audi recently allowed Ceramic brakes to be optioned on the US R8's. But they are more expensive than PCCB's and so you rarely see them on a car! Come rain, however, a well-sorted R8 will do better than most in slippery track conditions!

In general, the low production numbers R8's are a rare sight both on the street...and on the race tracks! They sure are 'purty', though!

Saludos,
Eduardo

Macca

A non metallic color is the only choice IMHO for a GT3/RS. Not to say others cant look nice. Turquoise Blue is the nicest I think. Not sure what Aqua Blue is but it sounds metallic?

I would be afraid a PTS colour could add months and months of delay to what is a limited production # vehicle run...

Macca

Z356. Ive always admired your Crystal Blue long hood. Its not dissimilar to mexico blue in the modern 997 palette. Maritime Blue is very strong and has a slightly purple hue. The 991 is a much bigger car than the 964 and suits different colours better perhaps.

It would be nice to see the light yellow they used on the 1973 RS again. It would suit the 991. "Racing Yelllow" for the 991 is too banana for me!

I think pale colours like light yellow would work best for this model. One could compliment it with dark green decals....

Carrera GT

For TC cresting, that sounds a bit like T1 at Laguna -- 125 mph, wide open throttle. If you put on a little steering angle pressure and use wide open throttle, the car will interrupt your stupidity. If you consciously release the steering and have the car straight ahead, it will give a nod of approval and let you stay wide open. That said, I have to admit the first couple of times (on a soggy, foggy morning) I was "trepidatious" but the car was entirely confident and confidence inspiring. The same revelation came at the 'screw -- if you tried to "jump 'n stick it" the car would say "in your dreams" but if you unwound the steering and took a three quarter throttle, it would consent to some "latitude." That's the 997.2 RS 3.8 version of PSM. The 991S version of PSM is not so bold, but it's at least as good as the 997.2 Carrera software.

The thing with PTV is that on the 991S, it doesn't have a switch, so you can't isolate it and figure out which of the bad handling mannerisms of the 991S should be attributed to PTV. But the car certainly has some artificial herky jerky that appears to manifest itself in hard driven PTV cars. Even some of the very ordinary pace handling is quirky at best, as if the car has absurdly compliant bushings, but only sometimes, and other times, it's as if it's on solid metal bushings. It's this same lag that's in PASM where the dampers are behind the car. A bit like PDK when it gets all flustered and you just have to leave it in Sport Plus or it will have these absurd personality schisms.

All this reminds me of the same sorts of conversations with the 997.1 GT3 taking over from the 996 GT3. I liked a lot of what the 997.1 brought to the party, but I just wished there was a switch for each individual system to just turn off the automatic stuff and fix the suspension in one mode, fix the traction control in one mode, etc. Good or bad, consistency becomes more important than "jack of all trades, master of none."