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I have had many changes in attitude over my 20+ years of 964 ownership. I have to admit I enjoyed these better when they were affordable and not on everyones radar. I miss the days when I could drive my turbo anyplace and the worst I had to worry about was a door ding. Today you don't know if it will be there when you get back. I can do without the swarms of people that surround the 964's anytime I leave them someplace and I have to politely decline nonsensical offers as they have me blocked in. Although the red GT4 does the same but a different crowd.
I have to start weeding down the heard as all these cars take up far too much time and money to maintain. I enjoy working on them but sometimes it becomes a job. Thankfully I have enough spares to build 2 more cars so I am set for a while but when I look at the parts alone and what was once practically free now costing thousands from Porsche you have to wonder where this is all heading.
Ironically I recently stole a 981 GT4 with 3k miles yet it still cost me more than I paid for my 3.6 turbo, C2, and the 83k mile C4 donor I used for the Blue Meanie combined. Although this was between 2000 and 2015 when these were just metal and money bought something. I agree prices will climb but how far can it reasonably go? I love my cars but as I get older and have had decades of fun enjoying them I have to wonder are they worth this much?
Heck yeah!!!
Anthony, that is crazy what you paid for your 964's. Talk about wise decisions... Not only are the cars a blast, you will never get bent over on them, financially. Fortunately, I bought mine very well also.
Our mileage is almost identical! Have to agree re: the driving experience. Just so engaging and satisfying. All the sights, sounds, smells, and feels are everything I want from a sports car. I had my GT4 and GT3 concurrently with the 964, and after a while, there was no contest on which keys I'd grab for a drive. Always 964. Still have the GT3, but it's fractionally as enjoyable as a street car. Too much to exploit safely / reasonably.
I'm sure there's a ceiling, but the confluence of very low supply and increasingly rabid demand doesn't seem to point towards softening (normal market adjustments aside). I'm sure 10 years ago, no one thought the entry point for a clean, no-stories 964 would be 100k. I wouldn't be surprised if that number is 200k in 10 more years. As ICE phases out and new cars move further away from the "rawness" of the 964, 993, 996, 997 experience, I think they'll all keep going up. And I'm seeing more and more enthusiasm for those cars from earlier millenials now, too. So as their earning potential increases in the next decade, and those cars increasingly represent an experience they can't find in newer models, I think the demand only goes further up.
I totally know what you are saying. As a street car, everything pales in comparison (or at least most vehicles do). My 964 feels the exact opposite of my Macan GTS in forms of speed and feel. I feel like I am wringing the car out and look down and I'm barely breaking the speed limit, awesome. I feel every bump, imperfection in the road, etc. The Macan (or any new Porsche) is just too darn good. So easy to look down at the speedo and you're doing 60mph in a 35mph zone. Impressive, but not rewarding. I love how the 964 makes you work for the speed and it is rewarding. With that being said, as a daily driver, I don't want to "work for the speed" as that gets taxing. As a weekend car, NOTHING LIKE IT!
Does anybody wonder if 911 in general, 964 in particular will ever go the same route as the 300SL: too valuable to drive even if a much more numerous, practical and easier to drive auto? The 356 Speedster is such a limited function item, the 356 Carrera 2 so very rare, the Singer long hood replicas...look where these have gone in the marketplace!
I split the difference by being wildly obsessive about care / condition, but stacking up the (s)miles all the same. But in my case, I've only had the car since Feb, and so still in the phase where I can't help but drive it any time I get the chance. It's just so good. I guess it's possible I'll start feeling worse about driving it as time goes on . . .
Possible, but not guaranteed. I’ve had mine for 5+ years and I still drive it every chance I get, year around, as it’s so much fun. Especially now, as it gets colder out.
My car still has its track/race life “patina” it earned over many years, so there’s less worry taking it out. However, I keep everything under the car 100% or better and it never lets me down. One day I’ll restore the outside but I keep putting it off as I don’t want to get to a point where I hesitate to take it out.
Strong money for that Targa, but then again it had very low miles.
Compared to some of the other results in this auction, the prices for the 964s seem close to inline or at least justifiable with market.
There were some high / outlier buys on some of the cars.
The 918 at $3.9M(!), the 911R at $1.1M, 991 GT2RS at $1.0M, 993GT2 at $2.4M
It’s pretty amazing how much these cars have gone up compared to where they were for a while. Remember looking at an RSA about 20 or 25 years ago and they were asking $30k. Had to pass on it though. I have a copy of the classified section of Autoweek from December 1995 and my US Cup was advertised for $51k (original owner paid MSRP a few years before which was $78k). Don’t wanna advertise how much I paid for mine, but nowadays these particular cars are worth about 5-10 times more. With certain cars going up as they have it certainly can change up the ownership experience. Especially if the car is in good condition and/or with low accurate miles may become more selective when and where you use it as these aren’t inexpensive cars anymore. Depending on how you look at it the market hike can be a good or bad thing.
Tough to say are they increasing in value or is the dollar that weak? My home and cars are worth substantially more today than in the early 2000's when I purchased them. So are my property taxes which are up equally as much. You could buy a new fully loaded turbo in 2000 for $140k today that will set you back well into the $250k range assuming you can get an allocation at MSRP. The white collection cars brought about what would be expected. Some of those numbers are not much better compared to similar cars a few years ago. So are they increasing or is the dollar just buying less? I think a little of both.
Tough to say are they increasing in value or is the dollar that weak? My home and cars are worth substantially more today than in the early 2000's when I purchased them. So are my property taxes which are up equally as much. You could buy a new fully loaded turbo in 2000 for $140k today that will set you back well into the $250k range assuming you can get an allocation at MSRP. The white collection cars brought about what would be expected. Some of those numbers are not much better compared to similar cars a few years ago. So are they increasing or is the dollar just buying less? I think a little of both.
Hard to put a price on fun.
Nonetheless still very interesting that the public perception towards the 964 has changed so much and how it’s reflected in their values. 10+ years ago they were seen by some as the ugly duckling amongst other air cooled 911’s. Ugly, unreliable, and leaky. Unless it was an early 911 or a 993 nobody really cared or valued it. Nowadays the perception towards the 964 has completely changed. Lots now admire the connection they have to the early cars in terms of their styling, size, and the way they drive. Some have even started to criticize the 993 as it did away with stuff like the upright front fenders and introduced the multilink rear suspension which made the cars less playful and less classic 911ish in its characteristics. The 964 was also just modern enough to get upgraded from the old torsion bar rear suspension that Porsche had been using forever on the 911 and back to the 356. It’s a great mix between modern and vintage. The 964 is maybe the best all round air cooled 911 experience if you could only have one.
Nonetheless still very interesting that the public perception towards the 964 has changed so much and how it’s reflected in their values. 10+ years ago they were seen by some as the ugly duckling amongst other air cooled 911’s. Ugly, unreliable, and leaky. Unless it was an early 911 or a 993 nobody really cared or valued it. Nowadays the perception towards the 964 has completely changed. Lots now admire the connection they have to the early cars in terms of their styling, size, and the way they drive. Some have even started to criticize the 993 as it did away with stuff like the upright front fenders and introduced the multilink rear suspension which made the cars less playful and less classic 911ish in its characteristics. The 964 was also just modern enough to get upgraded from the old torsion bar rear suspension that Porsche had been using forever on the 911 and back to the 356. It’s a great mix between modern and vintage. The 964 is maybe the best all round air cooled 911 experience if you could only have one.
Took me no time at all to come around to the same general conclusion on the 964 once acquired. I had been hunting a 993 and was convinced it was the grail, but now couldn’t be less interested in them. 964 is precisely the sweet spot for me. All the aesthetic appeal of the earlier cars, precisely the right size, and just enough modernity to enjoy in all conditions. That was not true of the 3.2 for me. Intolerable in extreme heat or cold. Way more finicky mechanically as well.
Nonetheless still very interesting that the public perception towards the 964 has changed so much and how it’s reflected in their values. 10+ years ago they were seen by some as the ugly duckling amongst other air cooled 911’s. Ugly, unreliable, and leaky. Unless it was an early 911 or a 993 nobody really cared or valued it. Nowadays the perception towards the 964 has completely changed. Lots now admire the connection they have to the early cars in terms of their styling, size, and the way they drive. Some have even started to criticize the 993 as it did away with stuff like the upright front fenders and introduced the multilink rear suspension which made the cars less playful and less classic 911ish in its characteristics. The 964 was also just modern enough to get upgraded from the old torsion bar rear suspension that Porsche had been using forever on the 911 and back to the 356. It’s a great mix between modern and vintage. The 964 is maybe the best all round air cooled 911 experience if you could only have one.
You know I was the odd one saying way back in the early 2000's that there was no reason these cars shouldn't be selling for MSRP or more back then. I was one of the odd birds that started buying up 964's and everyone was laughing at me. "Why would you buy a 3.6T when you could have a 993TT?" Can't tell you how many times I heard that one. I purchased the donor car that I used for my Blue Meanie project for $10k all in with 83k miles on the odo. I should have started purchasing so many of the cars I saw go to make singers early on when they were under $20k but the wife put her foot down. I knew these would always go up in value. I learned about the inverted bell curve with my early SC's and E's back in the 70's & 80's but the 964 exceeded even my expectations.
To me the 964 is the quintessential air-cooled 911 and the 911 the ultimate joy ride. So much went into these cars which becomes apparent when you work on the older or newer cars as well like I do. I will always appreciate every variant of 911 but the 964 will be the one I keep and will have to pry them out of my cold hands before I sell.
Sadly I am not so sure as many people these days know the differences or just parrot what they read on social media. Seems SM has lead this craze and will continue to fuel it but as more and more of these are modified I think the days of finding anything showroom new will be relegated to private collections and rarely be seen in public.
I miss the days when these were cheap and affordable. I am happy they have finally grown out of the ugly duckling phase but the swan it has become makes it more of a show piece these days than a car that can be driven without concern of loss or damage. What tomorrow will bring I think we know but how much more can this go? I have no idea. No doubt the white cars if preserved will be the standard for years to come.
You know I was the odd one saying way back in the early 2000's that there was no reason these cars shouldn't be selling for MSRP or more back then. I was one of the odd birds that started buying up 964's and everyone was laughing at me. "Why would you buy a 3.6T when you could have a 993TT?" Can't tell you how many times I heard that one. I purchased the donor car that I used for my Blue Meanie project for $10k all in with 83k miles on the odo. I should have started purchasing so many of the cars I saw go to make singers early on when they were under $20k but the wife put her foot down. I knew these would always go up in value. I learned about the inverted bell curve with my early SC's and E's back in the 70's & 80's but the 964 exceeded even my expectations.
To me the 964 is the quintessential air-cooled 911 and the 911 the ultimate joy ride. So much went into these cars which becomes apparent when you work on the older or newer cars as well like I do. I will always appreciate every variant of 911 but the 964 will be the one I keep and will have to pry them out of my cold hands before I sell.
Sadly I am not so sure as many people these days know the differences or just parrot what they read on social media. Seems SM has lead this craze and will continue to fuel it but as more and more of these are modified I think the days of finding anything showroom new will be relegated to private collections and rarely be seen in public.
I miss the days when these were cheap and affordable. I am happy they have finally grown out of the ugly duckling phase but the swan it has become makes it more of a show piece these days than a car that can be driven without concern of loss or damage. What tomorrow will bring I think we know but how much more can this go? I have no idea. No doubt the white cars if preserved will be the standard for years to come.
Props to you and others for realizing what everyone else was missing out on. I unfortunately was late to the party. Put off getting a 964 for years as newer stuff would steer me away. As a result I had to pay up for my car, but that’s ok as I have absolutely zero plans to sell it. My son wants it when I can no longer drive/care for it anymore so he’ll likely get it.
Now that Porsche IMO has been making less interesting new cars than they used to and the future looks bleak I’ve now started wanting older stuff. Hence why I finally got a 964 and also a 356. Also want a long-hood 911S which I also put off on getting for a very long time. That was one of my dream cars when I was a kid and it ignited my passion for the brand.
I hear ya. My friend just picked up a GT3RS. I am in awe of the car and what it is capable of but I am intimidated by it. I am too old school for all the video game features but it is an amazing machine. I have come to the conclusion if I can't work on them I won't own them and I have no interest in dealing with some of the newer cars.
You might have come to the race late but you picked the right examples. After having the cup in my garage and working on it extensively I gained a huge respect for them. If only I had the foresight to grab one when they were reasonable. BTW The S is nice but I really loved the E which is a reasonable alternative if you can find a nice one. It was the model I cut my teeth on and what made me turn away from other brands early on. The simplicity of the design and the fun factor was unmatched back then.
12-01-2023, 11:19 AM
