cobalt

After spending well over a decade looking over pictures for potential buyers and in some cases sellers I have gotten pretty good at picking up on things. In some cases pictures allow me to dwell and zoom in on areas that I might not pick up on in person. I do find that 90% of my suspicions have proven to be true. It took me a long time to become so in tune with these cars and I still learn something new each day. Everytime I learn something new I find my eye pics up on these nuances even more than before.

I agree most commenters have no clue about these cars and I love the last minute google search on production info which is always incorrect.

I believe we are starting to see what we did back in the 80's grey market. Buyers are becoming more educated and realise that some cars are worth the premium and others are just metal. I see very few good examples but they are out there. Just keep looking and they eventually show up just be prepared to pounce if you are shopping.

s65e90

BAT is full of buffoons, as indicated by the comments from the peanut gallery. I'm not sure I could list my car there and deal with the comments.

Dubbed743

I think you're being a bit harsh by saying "others are just metal". Like anything else, there is a spectrum of conditions for these cars and just because someone isn't buying into the top 5% doesn't automatically mean they're not getting a good car.

I'd also like to point out with the exception of mileage/paint, there is little that a sufficient sum of time & money can't cure.

Not specific to 964s, but the majority of true concours cars I've seen were rebuilt from the ground up, bolt by bolt.

cobalt

Parade is this coming Monday and I expect to Judge a lot of nice cars while mine is being Judged by others.

I couldn't agree more, each car needs to be evaluated on a case by case basis. There are many 964's I have seen sell for serious premiums I wouldn't touch if you paid me. My comment was based back during the grey market of the 80's and many of the cars I looked at by the end of the grey market were just metal and not worth even considering at any price. I have seen a few 964's sell for serious $$ I know the history of. Sadly some were sectioned together using clips from the wrong MY. Similar cars have been noted several times on some BaT and ebay auctions. IMO those cars which sold for over 6 figures were just metal and at that price were a fools purchase. I would buy them as parts cars as the money and time needed to fix the poor repairs will far exceed the value of the car with such a high buy in. Give me a damaged car vs a poorly repaired car any day. My experience has shown me it is easier to fix accident damage than it is to fix someone else's poor repair job. Nearly 90% of the 964's I look at have some hidden skeletons. Usually the seller who owned the car for over 5 years had no idea of what was done to the car prior to their ownership. Many very nice examples were chopped up for backdates. Today those cars would be selling for premiums instead of donor cars. It is a shame that the damaged cars are rejected and remain for sale while that clean tub was molested.

I think I know these cars as well as anyone and we have all learned there is a price for these and in the end if you buy the top 5% or not you will have close to top 5% money into them. Just because prices are increasing hasn't changed anything about the cars themselves. People don't realise that the used parts are increasing in value just as much as the cars. So now that C4 ABS module is $2800 vs a few hundred if you could find a buyer not all that long ago and parts are going ballistic. You used to get a decent top end rebuild for under $6k today good luck. I recently purchased a new set of speedlines I can easily double my money on if I chose to sell. So I guess it all depends on how you look at these. I look at each car as a perfect example and deduct from there. I have looked at cars people are asking over $150k for and are $100k cars tops but they will find an unsuspecting buyer at their price eventually.

s65e90

There was a time, not very long ago at all, where people frowned on gray market cars altogether.

cobalt

A lot of that had to do with Insurance companies not willing to cover grey market cars for similar value as US spec. Although back in Gbody days the RoW cars usually had a bit more power or features.

I still am very skeptical of grey market cars. I helped import over 70 back in the 80's and it was not easy to find honest examples about a year prior to the Government shutting things down. Today I find 90% of the Japanese imports are dogs with fleas with the remaining 10% being stellar examples but rare all the money cars. I recently helped a friend import a 91 turbo but we had some excellent help form some very knowledgeable mechanics overseas. The car ended up being exactly as expected which is quite rare. I wish I had someone in the US that was as thorough to look at these remotely. I find most shops miss a lot of issues when doing PPI's and many shops will no longer do them because of the potential of missing something.

smegman

I hope you're right, listing it for 95k for now, here's some pics I took, couldn't get paint readings (detailers paint depth meter was reading negative for paint level and he couldn't get it calibrated) but I believe its original, no clue to be honest
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Kcs9zWcwuePDJcBR8 its not perfect but its in pretty good shape imho and drives great (i tried to take pics of everything wrong with it)

JAB12

Perfect Stance! GLWS!

georgej

A couple of interesting sales on BAT. The GR '91 C2 has the pluses of being low mile, super pure and clean, and a C2. To me minuses are 1991/flag mirror/D90.

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/19...era-2-coupe-4/

The Midnight Blue '93 C4 has pluses of being lowish mile, super clean, full leather, great colors, and a 1993. To me minuses are a few more miles and being a C4 ( a plus for others).

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/19...era-4-coupe-2/

On the balance I am a bit surprised by the outcomes. The C2 seems a bit high and the C4 seems a bit low. Curious if others agree or disagree. Regardless I am glad for what I have got.

Scott Dunavant

Guards Red has made a come back in 2022. I've always been a huge fan of Midnight Blue but I'll never own a C4.

cobalt

I would say both are a bit down from a few months back. Although the delta between C2 and C4 appears correct. The Blue car was nicely photographed but if you look closely at the pictures under the harsh light the paint needed work and some of those numbers were questionable.

I have many people asking me to look at cars but they mostly all want PTS which isn't an easy find.

georgej

Yep, seemed like December through February might have been a peak. That said $150k for a C2 is strong. I had not noticed the flaws in the C4 though as a observer/happy owner I did not take a deep dive.

s65e90

Market on all specialty cars seems to have corrected very slightly, but when it was up almost 100% during Covid, it will probably never reset back to normal. New delta.

jeff33702

From reading BaT posts - and a quick look at the pics - I can tell you a couple things that jump out to me - things that will likely get mentioned and pull down the potential of the car.
- paint the rings from your H4 conversion
- the cut rear bumper for the dual exhaust
- exhaust hangs a little low on both sides - people will ask about motor mounts
- your 3.8 rebuild will be questioned and a potential buyer will want to see literature and pictures during the build
- get real cup 1s
- get matching tires all around - the people spending $100k on a car like this will want that
- pictures of the underside, if you don't have them already. Depending on how that looks, might consider detailing underneath.

And this is more of a question - Can you tell if it's base/clear on the car? I'm pretty sure 91 GR would be single stage. Ask your detailer, they will definitely know.

forbiddenbeat

To add to this, rather than just asking your detailer, paint meter readings all the car will be requested if not included in the original photos. If they don't read as original paint, knowing why is kind of essential (because people start to wonder if it was in an accident or something else happened).