RS America or Not?
05-21-2003, 01:29 PM
#151
Racer
The fire-extinguisher mounting I was talking about is the one on Cupcar´s first picture. I have a early, number 165 if I remember correct, Euro RS Basic (Lightweight or N/GT).
I did not know that this is a alternate mount for the ABS brain. Was this a heritage from the European Carrera Cup cars? And why did Porsche keep this on the RS Basic version?
I did not know that this is a alternate mount for the ABS brain. Was this a heritage from the European Carrera Cup cars? And why did Porsche keep this on the RS Basic version?
05-21-2003, 01:38 PM
#152
Addict
Lead Rennlist
Technical Advisor
Rennlist
Lifetime Member
Lead Rennlist
Technical Advisor
Rennlist
Lifetime Member
Option M718 is a VIN change. If the 964 was manufactured for one model year like first RSAs were in Jan 92-Jun 92 making them 92 models were sold under M718 which allowed them to be sold as 93 models. Some 964, 93 models were sold in the USA as 94 models and some were genuine 94 models. The first 993s sold in the USA were M718 94 models made into 95 models.
The first RSA were P series VIN with N series engines. The second lot were P series VIN with P series engines and the last lot were R VIN series with R series engines.
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4
The first RSA were P series VIN with N series engines. The second lot were P series VIN with P series engines and the last lot were R VIN series with R series engines.
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4
05-21-2003, 01:50 PM
#153
Rennlist Member
Patrik, All the European RS Basic lightweights had the additional bracket for the ABS that you have. I was told the ABS brain is mounted there on the Carrera Cup racing cars to make it less vulnerable in a crash. The Carrera Cup cars were based on the N/GT chassis modifications. You should have the battery cut off and the pump mounts as well. <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />
05-21-2003, 02:12 PM
#154
Instructor
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 130
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WP0AB2968 R S420236
So Adrian my 1994 964 carrera 2 has an "R " number in the vin, does this also mean I have a differant motor then the P series?
I have been told several times that 718 means "built as next years model" and I have seen this on web site for Porsche option decoders
Thanks
Randal
So Adrian my 1994 964 carrera 2 has an "R " number in the vin, does this also mean I have a differant motor then the P series?
I have been told several times that 718 means "built as next years model" and I have seen this on web site for Porsche option decoders
Thanks
Randal
05-21-2003, 03:31 PM
#155
Rennlist Member
I'm not Adrian but I think I know the answer and Adrian can correct if I'm wrong.
Porsche codes the Chassis VIN with the tenth digit being a letter for the year of manufacture.
N= 1992
O= Skipped letter, could confuse with Q
P= 1993
Q= Skipped letter, could confuse with O
R= 1994 and so on.
The third digit of the engine serial number codes for the year of manufacture using the same code as above.
The first RSA's were built during the 1992 production run and had an "N" coded 1992 engine with option code "M718" 1993 "P" Coded VIN numbers, since they were actually built during the 1992 production run (hence the M718).
The later RSA's built during the regular 1993 production run had "P" VIN numbers and "P" engine numbers since they were built during the regular 1993 production sequence, these would therefore not be M718 cars.
If it is true that Porsche built some M718 cars in 1993 as 1994 models then they should have a "P" coded 1993 engine and an "R" coded 1994 VIN. I don't think this happened.
The RSA's built during the regular 1994 production run would have "R" engines and "R" VIN numbers, and your number should reflect this.
The engines are the same it just when they were built that is different. Confusing stuff. <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />
Porsche codes the Chassis VIN with the tenth digit being a letter for the year of manufacture.
N= 1992
O= Skipped letter, could confuse with Q
P= 1993
Q= Skipped letter, could confuse with O
R= 1994 and so on.
The third digit of the engine serial number codes for the year of manufacture using the same code as above.
The first RSA's were built during the 1992 production run and had an "N" coded 1992 engine with option code "M718" 1993 "P" Coded VIN numbers, since they were actually built during the 1992 production run (hence the M718).
The later RSA's built during the regular 1993 production run had "P" VIN numbers and "P" engine numbers since they were built during the regular 1993 production sequence, these would therefore not be M718 cars.
If it is true that Porsche built some M718 cars in 1993 as 1994 models then they should have a "P" coded 1993 engine and an "R" coded 1994 VIN. I don't think this happened.
The RSA's built during the regular 1994 production run would have "R" engines and "R" VIN numbers, and your number should reflect this.
The engines are the same it just when they were built that is different. Confusing stuff. <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />
05-21-2003, 04:26 PM
#156
Racer
Cupcar, Thanks for your info. I do have the other mods. as a RS Basic should have.
You can see some pics. of my RS on my site.
<a href="http://hobbystage.net/porsche/selestam/" target="_blank">http://hobbystage.net/porsche/selestam/</a>
You can see some pics. of my RS on my site.
<a href="http://hobbystage.net/porsche/selestam/" target="_blank">http://hobbystage.net/porsche/selestam/</a>
05-29-2003, 09:15 PM
#158
Advanced
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: San Diego
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bob G,
Your data is correct regarding the letter indicating the model year in the Vin# ("N" is MY '92, "P" is MY '93, and "R" is MY '94) and also correct regarding the skipped letters "O" and "Q".
However, you are not correct about your theory of the first RSA's being "N" series cars. Sorry Bob!
This ties in exactly with the "718" option - which quite literally means next years model. Adrian was only partially correct with his Vin# change story (and I LOVE telling him he's not 100% right!!
)..... (Hi Adrian <img border="0" alt="[byebye]" title="" src="graemlins/wave.gif" /> ) .....The RSA was intended as a '93 model year car, so examples built alongside '92 model year cars were Vin#'ed with a "P" and as a consequence had 718 on the options list.
I have a listing of all RSA Vin numbers which has been developed and verified in conjunction with the factory archivist in Stuttgart within the last 5 weeks. I can categorically state that no RS Americas were made with an "N" as the model year designator.
The first 297 RS Americas were made from Feb '92 to Jul '92 and under normal circumstances would have had an "N" if they were intended for 1992 model year.
However these first 297 cars (Vin #'s 418001 - 418297) were all identified as "P" model year cars and because they were built as a '93 model and thus they all carried the 718 option code.
In July '92 the Vin# 419XXX RS Americas started at number 61 (i.e. 419061 - 419380 Total 320) with RSA 419380 having an M-date of May-93.
The first of the "R" series cars ('94 model year) was Vin# RS419064 (M-date May-93) and the last RSA made was RS419147 (TOTAL 84).
297 + 320 + 84 = 701 Total Production run
This data came from Stuttgart and is much more clearly explained on <a href="http://www.rsamerica.net" target="_blank">www.rsamerica.net</a> on the Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ's) page.
Also, Brian O with his 33 miles Polar Silver RSA is not correct in saying his car is "a rare 718 option car" 297 out of 701 RS Americas had the 718 option on the bottom of their ID label under the front hood.
What he did mean to say, is that his car has the rare 900 option which means European delivery i.e. picked up in Stuttgart.
Which, as posted previously on this thread, does seem odd for a US/Canada market car, which, over 10 years later, claims to have only 33 miles on it. Someone went all the way to Stuttgart to pick up his new RSA in Europe and then didn't drive it??
I would never repeat some of the nasty rumors I have heard about people disconnecting the speedometer drive cable so as not show the miles the car has on it - that would be a mean thing to say.
OK.
My Vin# facts and option code clarifications are stated above, and my trouble making is just about complete ..... for now.
I wonder if Adrian can resist replying to my smart a** remark above......(Hi Adrian <img border="0" alt="[byebye]" title="" src="graemlins/wave.gif" /> ).
Hey guys - remember it is possible to have great respect for somebody and still disagree with them.
Please check out the FAQ's page on <a href="http://www.rsamerica.net" target="_blank">www.rsamerica.net</a> for Vin# issues for RS Americas.
I hope this epic has helped. Cheers! Keith V.
Your data is correct regarding the letter indicating the model year in the Vin# ("N" is MY '92, "P" is MY '93, and "R" is MY '94) and also correct regarding the skipped letters "O" and "Q".
However, you are not correct about your theory of the first RSA's being "N" series cars. Sorry Bob!
This ties in exactly with the "718" option - which quite literally means next years model. Adrian was only partially correct with his Vin# change story (and I LOVE telling him he's not 100% right!!
)..... (Hi Adrian <img border="0" alt="[byebye]" title="" src="graemlins/wave.gif" /> ) .....The RSA was intended as a '93 model year car, so examples built alongside '92 model year cars were Vin#'ed with a "P" and as a consequence had 718 on the options list.I have a listing of all RSA Vin numbers which has been developed and verified in conjunction with the factory archivist in Stuttgart within the last 5 weeks. I can categorically state that no RS Americas were made with an "N" as the model year designator.
The first 297 RS Americas were made from Feb '92 to Jul '92 and under normal circumstances would have had an "N" if they were intended for 1992 model year.
However these first 297 cars (Vin #'s 418001 - 418297) were all identified as "P" model year cars and because they were built as a '93 model and thus they all carried the 718 option code.
In July '92 the Vin# 419XXX RS Americas started at number 61 (i.e. 419061 - 419380 Total 320) with RSA 419380 having an M-date of May-93.
The first of the "R" series cars ('94 model year) was Vin# RS419064 (M-date May-93) and the last RSA made was RS419147 (TOTAL 84).
297 + 320 + 84 = 701 Total Production run
This data came from Stuttgart and is much more clearly explained on <a href="http://www.rsamerica.net" target="_blank">www.rsamerica.net</a> on the Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ's) page.
Also, Brian O with his 33 miles Polar Silver RSA is not correct in saying his car is "a rare 718 option car" 297 out of 701 RS Americas had the 718 option on the bottom of their ID label under the front hood.
What he did mean to say, is that his car has the rare 900 option which means European delivery i.e. picked up in Stuttgart.
Which, as posted previously on this thread, does seem odd for a US/Canada market car, which, over 10 years later, claims to have only 33 miles on it. Someone went all the way to Stuttgart to pick up his new RSA in Europe and then didn't drive it??
I would never repeat some of the nasty rumors I have heard about people disconnecting the speedometer drive cable so as not show the miles the car has on it - that would be a mean thing to say.
OK.
My Vin# facts and option code clarifications are stated above, and my trouble making is just about complete ..... for now.
I wonder if Adrian can resist replying to my smart a** remark above......(Hi Adrian <img border="0" alt="[byebye]" title="" src="graemlins/wave.gif" /> ).
Hey guys - remember it is possible to have great respect for somebody and still disagree with them.
Please check out the FAQ's page on <a href="http://www.rsamerica.net" target="_blank">www.rsamerica.net</a> for Vin# issues for RS Americas.
I hope this epic has helped. Cheers! Keith V.
05-29-2003, 09:25 PM
#159
Advanced
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: San Diego
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I just read Bob G's statement above about the first RSA's having an "N" in the engine number again ....and I owe him a public apology.
I read your message to say that the first RSA's had an "N" as the year letter in the Vin#.
Please accept my apologies Bob. My mistake.
Adios. KV.
PS.(Hi Adrian <img border="0" alt="[byebye]" title="" src="graemlins/wave.gif" /> )
I read your message to say that the first RSA's had an "N" as the year letter in the Vin#.
Please accept my apologies Bob. My mistake.
Adios. KV.
PS.(Hi Adrian <img border="0" alt="[byebye]" title="" src="graemlins/wave.gif" /> )
05-30-2003, 02:44 PM
#160
Addict
Lead Rennlist
Technical Advisor
Rennlist
Lifetime Member
Lead Rennlist
Technical Advisor
Rennlist
Lifetime Member
Dear Keith,
The legal fact is that any automobile built during a declared production run belongs to that model year. The first RSAs were legally 1992 models and they retained the 1992 engine but had M718 declared to allow them to be sold as 93 models.
These RSAs were built to 1993 specs in the body and chassis department. They were never actually fitted with a VIN which says N that is true. However legally they were 1992 models and hence M718 was required to be used to make the whole thing legal under German law.
So what does all this mean. What you are saying is exactly what I am saying. You just deleted a couple of words to fully explain the situation.
Now did Porsche use 1992 model chassis and body assemblies and upgrade them to 1993 specs or did they build 1993 model year chassis and body assemblies for the RS America? If you ever can find the engineering description of M718 for the RSA it will explain every detail of what they did to accomplish the job.
According to Don earlier Porsche used 1992 model unused RS touring chassis and body assemblies. The statements from Porsche you have obtained tends to suggest they were new build bodies, built from the beginning to 1993 spec. Seam welding was not a narrowbody 1993 spec.
Dear Cupcar
The RSA was the only Porsche in the 964 series to have M718 declared but used an earlier series engine. I suspect this was done because the engine needed to be modified and they had a bunch of unused 1992 M64/01 engines available.
The first batch of 993s sold into the USA were M718 ROW 1994 models sold as 1995 models. They had S series engines installed not Rs.
The 1994 models of 964 sold under M718 also had R series engines installed not Ps. The RSA experience cannot be applied to other models.
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4
PS: One last thing Keith. Speedo cable on a 964? To disconnect the speed input signal on a RSA you have to pull relay R24.
The legal fact is that any automobile built during a declared production run belongs to that model year. The first RSAs were legally 1992 models and they retained the 1992 engine but had M718 declared to allow them to be sold as 93 models.
These RSAs were built to 1993 specs in the body and chassis department. They were never actually fitted with a VIN which says N that is true. However legally they were 1992 models and hence M718 was required to be used to make the whole thing legal under German law.
So what does all this mean. What you are saying is exactly what I am saying. You just deleted a couple of words to fully explain the situation.
Now did Porsche use 1992 model chassis and body assemblies and upgrade them to 1993 specs or did they build 1993 model year chassis and body assemblies for the RS America? If you ever can find the engineering description of M718 for the RSA it will explain every detail of what they did to accomplish the job.
According to Don earlier Porsche used 1992 model unused RS touring chassis and body assemblies. The statements from Porsche you have obtained tends to suggest they were new build bodies, built from the beginning to 1993 spec. Seam welding was not a narrowbody 1993 spec.
Dear Cupcar
The RSA was the only Porsche in the 964 series to have M718 declared but used an earlier series engine. I suspect this was done because the engine needed to be modified and they had a bunch of unused 1992 M64/01 engines available.
The first batch of 993s sold into the USA were M718 ROW 1994 models sold as 1995 models. They had S series engines installed not Rs.
The 1994 models of 964 sold under M718 also had R series engines installed not Ps. The RSA experience cannot be applied to other models.
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4
PS: One last thing Keith. Speedo cable on a 964? To disconnect the speed input signal on a RSA you have to pull relay R24.
08-14-2003, 07:26 PM
#161
Advanced
Thread Starter
My RSA
Dear All,
Well, it has been about 5 months since I started this wild thread. I’m not here to bring up more discussion on C2 vs RSA, or seam welded tubs, more HP, etc....................for now, I have the answers I needed.
I thought this would be a great way to end this thread and share with all of you that I am now a proud owner of a midnight blue RS America. I traveled far looking for the right one and I finally found one, thanks to Keith.
Here are some images after taking ownership of my new RSA and driving over 300 miles to bring her home. What a ride!! An absolute blast!! A kid again!! No regrets!!
I want to thank all of you for contributing to this thread and for the very informative input. I'm now only a rookie and but hope to experts like some of you someday.
I’ll be chatting with you all soon and I’m sure I’ll have questions as my ownership is only a week old. I have waited a long time to own a 911 and I simply love my RS America!
Jon
1993 RS America
Well, it has been about 5 months since I started this wild thread. I’m not here to bring up more discussion on C2 vs RSA, or seam welded tubs, more HP, etc....................for now, I have the answers I needed.
I thought this would be a great way to end this thread and share with all of you that I am now a proud owner of a midnight blue RS America. I traveled far looking for the right one and I finally found one, thanks to Keith.
Here are some images after taking ownership of my new RSA and driving over 300 miles to bring her home. What a ride!! An absolute blast!! A kid again!! No regrets!!
I want to thank all of you for contributing to this thread and for the very informative input. I'm now only a rookie and but hope to experts like some of you someday.
I’ll be chatting with you all soon and I’m sure I’ll have questions as my ownership is only a week old. I have waited a long time to own a 911 and I simply love my RS America!
Jon
1993 RS America
08-14-2003, 08:46 PM
#164
Advanced
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: San Diego
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Welcome aboard fanatic!! (to RS America ownership I mean).
I think you might find it interesting to re-read some of the posts on this string and I am pretty sure you will be able to tell who has driven an RS America and who has just read the book about them.
Either way ...................... enjoy your car!
Keith V.
PCA RS America Registry
http://www.rsamerica.net
I think you might find it interesting to re-read some of the posts on this string and I am pretty sure you will be able to tell who has driven an RS America and who has just read the book about them.
Either way ...................... enjoy your car!
Keith V.
PCA RS America Registry
http://www.rsamerica.net