guru 364 or vitesse stage 2?
09-17-2003, 01:33 AM
#31
what exactly is the piggyback controller? does it mean you don't need a new set of chips (ie can run with stock ones)? or do you still need a good baseline to adjust from?
09-17-2003, 02:25 AM
#32
Rennlist Junkie Forever
Alex E. : I don't know how many kits are on the road. How would I? I do know that I've seen one, and that the engine isn't "smoked", it ran great, but was suffering from a very very weak wastegate which was costing a ton of HP.
Also... concerning my shipping habits. I know I've not sold anything to you. So I really don't know how you are in the position to comment on anything I do with respect to selling or shipping. This is typical heresay. The people that are happy (which out number the unhappy by at least 100:1) don't get on this list and say... "Gee... he sure shipped it fast" or "wow... the parts were much better quality that he described", etc... So unless you have direct experience with my shipping/selling, you should keep your comments to yourself since they are nothing more than heresay.
Furthermore, you have no experience with the Guru 364 kit nor have you ever even seen one in person. I have. Yet you say that it doesn't exist. I guess this list should take your word for it?
Lastly, listening to your comments about your boost spiking, only further my opinion about your limited experience concerning 951 performance modifications.
Here's a tip: Get a good wastegate. There's a saying, "The best boost controller is a good wastegate". Take the AVC and throw it in the trash can. Buy a Tial 46mm wastegate and a "old school technology" manual boost controller, and you will no longer have boost issues. It amazes me how people will spend big money on electronic pieces of crap instead of a good wastegate which would have fixed the issue in the first place.
Now back to Guru 364 issues...
I'm not defending Guru, nor am I comparing Guro to Vitessess. I could care less who you spend you money with. But what I can't stand is people that haven't tried a whole heck of a lot of what's out there, telling us what's best for our cars.
Try everything 2 or 3 turners have to offer, then talk.
Also... concerning my shipping habits. I know I've not sold anything to you. So I really don't know how you are in the position to comment on anything I do with respect to selling or shipping. This is typical heresay. The people that are happy (which out number the unhappy by at least 100:1) don't get on this list and say... "Gee... he sure shipped it fast" or "wow... the parts were much better quality that he described", etc... So unless you have direct experience with my shipping/selling, you should keep your comments to yourself since they are nothing more than heresay.
Furthermore, you have no experience with the Guru 364 kit nor have you ever even seen one in person. I have. Yet you say that it doesn't exist. I guess this list should take your word for it?
Lastly, listening to your comments about your boost spiking, only further my opinion about your limited experience concerning 951 performance modifications.
Here's a tip: Get a good wastegate. There's a saying, "The best boost controller is a good wastegate". Take the AVC and throw it in the trash can. Buy a Tial 46mm wastegate and a "old school technology" manual boost controller, and you will no longer have boost issues. It amazes me how people will spend big money on electronic pieces of crap instead of a good wastegate which would have fixed the issue in the first place.
Now back to Guru 364 issues...
I'm not defending Guru, nor am I comparing Guro to Vitessess. I could care less who you spend you money with. But what I can't stand is people that haven't tried a whole heck of a lot of what's out there, telling us what's best for our cars.
Try everything 2 or 3 turners have to offer, then talk.
09-17-2003, 02:30 AM
#33
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crazyracer
I can tune your car with the Vitessess kit in 5 minutes with an adjustable fuel pressure regulator and an ARC2 or Pro-M if it's using a MAF sensor.
What's the big deal?
Pick your turbo, add larger injectors, an ARC2 or Pro-M, a MAF kit, and a Bursch test pipe. 5 minutes I can tune your car damn close to what it needs to be. Get it on a dyno and it can be perfect within 5 dyno pulls.
It's not rocket science. The key is using a MAF!!! :-)
MAP is much more difficult to tune. And why people are using MAP vs MAF is beyond me since the MAF costs no HP and is WORLDS easier to tune and provides excellent drivability with ease of tuning.
I can tune your car with the Vitessess kit in 5 minutes with an adjustable fuel pressure regulator and an ARC2 or Pro-M if it's using a MAF sensor.
What's the big deal?
Pick your turbo, add larger injectors, an ARC2 or Pro-M, a MAF kit, and a Bursch test pipe. 5 minutes I can tune your car damn close to what it needs to be. Get it on a dyno and it can be perfect within 5 dyno pulls.
It's not rocket science. The key is using a MAF!!! :-)
MAP is much more difficult to tune. And why people are using MAP vs MAF is beyond me since the MAF costs no HP and is WORLDS easier to tune and provides excellent drivability with ease of tuning.
09-17-2003, 02:39 AM
#34
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Jeremy Himsel
I'm not defending Guru. And I have no idea how many kits are out there or the status of his order fulfillment, etc...
All I know is what I've seen first hand. And that's a car with a Guru 364 kit with a trashed wastegate. The car ran great. The wastegate was weak and only built boost slowly and linearly to the redline of the car. And based on experience, I can tell you that the weak wastegate probably cost that car a good 30+ TQ to the wheels (probably more) and at least 30HP to the wheels.
Remember..... that car only made like 16 psi boost exactly at redline. Up to that point, it was making much less boost.
You can't base the performance of the Guru kit on a car that has a faulty component. Especially one as important to performance as a wastegate. And because of the bad wastegate, the turbo never had a chance to "whip" which resulted in less TQ/HP that what normally would have resulted.
I'm not defending Guru. And I have no idea how many kits are out there or the status of his order fulfillment, etc...
All I know is what I've seen first hand. And that's a car with a Guru 364 kit with a trashed wastegate. The car ran great. The wastegate was weak and only built boost slowly and linearly to the redline of the car. And based on experience, I can tell you that the weak wastegate probably cost that car a good 30+ TQ to the wheels (probably more) and at least 30HP to the wheels.
Remember..... that car only made like 16 psi boost exactly at redline. Up to that point, it was making much less boost.
You can't base the performance of the Guru kit on a car that has a faulty component. Especially one as important to performance as a wastegate. And because of the bad wastegate, the turbo never had a chance to "whip" which resulted in less TQ/HP that what normally would have resulted.
Last edited by TonyG; 09-17-2003 at 04:41 AM.
09-17-2003, 02:44 AM
#35
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Alex E.
"You are better of selling the TonyG 400HPKIT... that has a better shot at making it on the market than the guru364kit getting on the market even with your shipping habits!!!"
Funny....
I don't sell kits. All I do is provide my personal experience with my personal development to this list. And it's free.
All I can say is... I'll see ya at the track.... errrr rather I'll be waiting for ya at the finish line... :-)
"You are better of selling the TonyG 400HPKIT... that has a better shot at making it on the market than the guru364kit getting on the market even with your shipping habits!!!"
Funny....
I don't sell kits. All I do is provide my personal experience with my personal development to this list. And it's free.
All I can say is... I'll see ya at the track.... errrr rather I'll be waiting for ya at the finish line... :-)
09-17-2003, 02:46 AM
#36
I suppose this is getting out of hand.More or less i am with TonyG.It's unwise to write if you don't have all necessary information.
I am sure both Vitesse & Guru can offer god products. Ok you just have to choose what you want, MAF or MAP. MAF systems have been around ages, MAP is relatively new issue (with our cars). Who can tell which is better, both have pros & cons
I am sure both Vitesse & Guru can offer god products. Ok you just have to choose what you want, MAF or MAP. MAF systems have been around ages, MAP is relatively new issue (with our cars). Who can tell which is better, both have pros & cons
09-17-2003, 02:49 AM
#37
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facboy
A piggy back fuel controller intercepts the MAF output signal and tweaks it so that the factory ECU (computer) thinks there is more or less air being injested into the engine that there really is being injested.
By doing this, you can richen up or lean out the fuel being injected into the engine.
It works excellent and has allowed me to get to record levels of performance with a 2.5 liter 944 turbo engine at relative low levels of boost.
Not to say that you can achieve these levels of performance, you can't without spending a lot of money. But what you can do easily and quickly is to tune your specific combination of modifications for your car accurately and easily, and with minimal cost.
A piggy back fuel controller intercepts the MAF output signal and tweaks it so that the factory ECU (computer) thinks there is more or less air being injested into the engine that there really is being injested.
By doing this, you can richen up or lean out the fuel being injected into the engine.
It works excellent and has allowed me to get to record levels of performance with a 2.5 liter 944 turbo engine at relative low levels of boost.
Not to say that you can achieve these levels of performance, you can't without spending a lot of money. But what you can do easily and quickly is to tune your specific combination of modifications for your car accurately and easily, and with minimal cost.
09-17-2003, 09:47 AM
#38
ok, well that's what i thought. but my understanding was that u could only adjust so far with the piggyback computer, eg if u were running an extensive list of mods, and are flowing a lot more air than stock, then the stock DME/KLR combo would not be sufficient, no matter how much tweaking u did with a piggyback.
or am i completely wrong on this? r u, in fact, running the stock DME/KLR?
or am i completely wrong on this? r u, in fact, running the stock DME/KLR?
09-17-2003, 11:14 AM
#39
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Hello
I had one of teh first Vitesse kits almost 2 years ago. so the kit is not new!! John just waited till he was 100% sure that it works. After he was sure he sold it and this took him almsot 2 years.
I had even eth first verison without the Piggy back and it also worked fine and teh car could be tuned within min. John suply special chips with his kit that are ONLY for his kit. So thats why it works from the first momment.
I have at least 5 friend who use his kit in WÉurope. I can not say how many HP but the 2.5 L 951 is as fast as a 993 Turbo and the 951 is running only 1 bar boost (14,5 PSI)
This was messured by an AP 22 on different cars with more than one unit so the results are acurate.
I can speak about the time from 60-125 mph and the 951 was as fast a sthe 993 TT.
Yes the Vitesse kit is fast!!! no doubt and it comes with a 110% service from john
On teh other site I cna not comment on teh guru kit as I never had one but Danno is always very helpfull so I wouldn't say anything bad for him. I never had a problem with him. Yes it takes sometimes till he reply but other tuners are not better. (i do not want to name them here)
I bought the vitesse kit as this was the only one offered 2 years ago. I had and also still have a HR Stage 3. The vitesse kit kicks in much harder and it is much faster on the top. His Turbo is also much better than the one that other tuners offer.
all in all I am happy with Johns kit and all others who tried are the same happy as I. Still didn't tried his PB with the MAF but soon will do this. I know from others who tried and fixed Problem that they had with Lidsays MAF
The HR HAF with the ARC2 can be tuned very fast BUT the settings changing if the har is running hard. So I tune it again and when I slow down (after the track) the setting has to be changed again. You ned at leats three maps for HR kit. One race , one street, and one for cold days.
I think it is not the mAF it is teh temp sénsor that are NOT included and never offered with the kit.
I will update this and see if it is better.
Konstantin
I had one of teh first Vitesse kits almost 2 years ago. so the kit is not new!! John just waited till he was 100% sure that it works. After he was sure he sold it and this took him almsot 2 years.
I had even eth first verison without the Piggy back and it also worked fine and teh car could be tuned within min. John suply special chips with his kit that are ONLY for his kit. So thats why it works from the first momment.
I have at least 5 friend who use his kit in WÉurope. I can not say how many HP but the 2.5 L 951 is as fast as a 993 Turbo and the 951 is running only 1 bar boost (14,5 PSI)
This was messured by an AP 22 on different cars with more than one unit so the results are acurate.
I can speak about the time from 60-125 mph and the 951 was as fast a sthe 993 TT.
Yes the Vitesse kit is fast!!! no doubt and it comes with a 110% service from john
On teh other site I cna not comment on teh guru kit as I never had one but Danno is always very helpfull so I wouldn't say anything bad for him. I never had a problem with him. Yes it takes sometimes till he reply but other tuners are not better. (i do not want to name them here)
I bought the vitesse kit as this was the only one offered 2 years ago. I had and also still have a HR Stage 3. The vitesse kit kicks in much harder and it is much faster on the top. His Turbo is also much better than the one that other tuners offer.
all in all I am happy with Johns kit and all others who tried are the same happy as I. Still didn't tried his PB with the MAF but soon will do this. I know from others who tried and fixed Problem that they had with Lidsays MAF
The HR HAF with the ARC2 can be tuned very fast BUT the settings changing if the har is running hard. So I tune it again and when I slow down (after the track) the setting has to be changed again. You ned at leats three maps for HR kit. One race , one street, and one for cold days.
I think it is not the mAF it is teh temp sénsor that are NOT included and never offered with the kit.
I will update this and see if it is better.
Konstantin
09-17-2003, 12:01 PM
#40
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Tony... This post was a simple..........Should I get 'A' or 'B'.........
A is available and works.......... B as everyone has eluded is somewhere in development........... quite simple really ?
As you do with most of your posts you start piping of? Why??? I don't quite understand but we will leave it at that. These are peoples opinions on 'A' or 'B' and since as you state you have no opinion on either why comment?
Yes Yes .... I forgot you want to explain the beauty of the KKK and how a simple MAF and minor modifications can make a 400rwhp monster. If you want to convey those ideas please do so, so the poster can get an idea of what the options are.
To the comment of 'guys who havent it done it should stop commenting anything that they havent tried'.....I have seen vitesse and Guru map in action...... and yes to me Vitesse delivers.
......thanks for the wastegate tip I should of thought of that one......
A is available and works.......... B as everyone has eluded is somewhere in development........... quite simple really ?
As you do with most of your posts you start piping of? Why??? I don't quite understand but we will leave it at that. These are peoples opinions on 'A' or 'B' and since as you state you have no opinion on either why comment?
Yes Yes .... I forgot you want to explain the beauty of the KKK and how a simple MAF and minor modifications can make a 400rwhp monster. If you want to convey those ideas please do so, so the poster can get an idea of what the options are.
To the comment of 'guys who havent it done it should stop commenting anything that they havent tried'.....I have seen vitesse and Guru map in action...... and yes to me Vitesse delivers.
......thanks for the wastegate tip I should of thought of that one......
09-17-2003, 01:18 PM
#41
Rennlist Junkie Forever
AlexE
The reason I "pipe off", as you put it, is because there is a large percentage of information that is offered up on this list that is simply not accurate. A lot of times its very inaccurate.
Example: The Guru 364 kit that has a smoked engine.
Do you think that this comment might be just a little misleading to people considering a purchase from Guru? Especially since it simply isn't true.
Your post clearly implies that you think that I should refrain from setting the record straight. I would bet a lot of people here do not agree with you or your comments.
Now to your little poke about my comments concerning the KKK turbos.
You see, it's not necessary to buy a kit to get the performance you have now. It very easy to get the power you have from your "stage 2" kit and spend a LOT less money. Should this also be kept from the list? Would this be considered "piping off"?
"Yes Yes .... I forgot you want to explain the beauty of the KKK and how a simple MAF and minor modifications can make a 400rwhp monster. If you want to convey those ideas please do so, so the poster can get an idea of what the options are."
You obviously, again, are spitting out inaccurate information. Go back and re-read what I wrote concerning the K27/6 and what you can expect. Maybe it will stick next time. But it was a nice attempt to trivialize what I said concerning the K27/6 setup and how it will make the power your car makes for a lot less money.
The reason I "pipe off", as you put it, is because there is a large percentage of information that is offered up on this list that is simply not accurate. A lot of times its very inaccurate.
Example: The Guru 364 kit that has a smoked engine.
Do you think that this comment might be just a little misleading to people considering a purchase from Guru? Especially since it simply isn't true.
Your post clearly implies that you think that I should refrain from setting the record straight. I would bet a lot of people here do not agree with you or your comments.
Now to your little poke about my comments concerning the KKK turbos.
You see, it's not necessary to buy a kit to get the performance you have now. It very easy to get the power you have from your "stage 2" kit and spend a LOT less money. Should this also be kept from the list? Would this be considered "piping off"?
"Yes Yes .... I forgot you want to explain the beauty of the KKK and how a simple MAF and minor modifications can make a 400rwhp monster. If you want to convey those ideas please do so, so the poster can get an idea of what the options are."
You obviously, again, are spitting out inaccurate information. Go back and re-read what I wrote concerning the K27/6 and what you can expect. Maybe it will stick next time. But it was a nice attempt to trivialize what I said concerning the K27/6 setup and how it will make the power your car makes for a lot less money.
09-17-2003, 01:20 PM
#42
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I bought the vitesse kit as this was the only one offered 2 years ago. I had and also
still have a HR Stage 3. The vitesse kit kicks in much harder and it is much faster on
the top. His Turbo is also much better than the one that other tuners offer.
Konstatin,
I wouldnt say that. It is the same turbo that all of the other tuners offer.John just used his own combination of wheels in that particular turbo which apparently seems to work very well for you. Now I will go out on a limb because we have a dual ceramic ball-bearing turbo that IS better then anything offered by any 951 tuner. It is completely different then what everybody else is selling.It is expensive though.There are a few people on the list who have these new turbos and I am sure you will here about them soon.We are also putting together a bolt-on package which will be hands down, second to none.For the same price as some of the other kits, you will get: much, much more.Take care.
still have a HR Stage 3. The vitesse kit kicks in much harder and it is much faster on
the top. His Turbo is also much better than the one that other tuners offer.
Konstatin,
I wouldnt say that. It is the same turbo that all of the other tuners offer.John just used his own combination of wheels in that particular turbo which apparently seems to work very well for you. Now I will go out on a limb because we have a dual ceramic ball-bearing turbo that IS better then anything offered by any 951 tuner. It is completely different then what everybody else is selling.It is expensive though.There are a few people on the list who have these new turbos and I am sure you will here about them soon.We are also putting together a bolt-on package which will be hands down, second to none.For the same price as some of the other kits, you will get: much, much more.Take care.
09-17-2003, 01:43 PM
#43
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OK, in response to the first question posted here...... I'm not trying to join in on the Guru bashing here, but I have the MAP kit and I am impressed with the performance, but not the tuneability. The kit really requires the serial data log adapter and tuning module at extra cost. I'm not sure if those will be incorporated into the 364 kit or not. Also, the wait for the kit was ridiculous. I got multiple promises like "it will ship this weekend"..."I'm packaging it up right now". Blah, blah blah.
With that being said I would not recommend the guru 364 kit for those reasons. The guru kit really can't be compared right now because I haven't seen any dyno #'s and it hasn't been released. Perhaps a better kit comparison would be to Lindsey's kit.
With that being said I would not recommend the guru 364 kit for those reasons. The guru kit really can't be compared right now because I haven't seen any dyno #'s and it hasn't been released. Perhaps a better kit comparison would be to Lindsey's kit.
09-17-2003, 01:48 PM
#44
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Originally posted by TurboTim
We are also putting together a bolt-on package which will be hands down, second to none.For the same price as some of the other kits, you will get: much, much more.Take care.
We are also putting together a bolt-on package which will be hands down, second to none.For the same price as some of the other kits, you will get: much, much more.Take care.
09-17-2003, 02:01 PM
#45
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@Tim.
Johns Turbo was better than the HR or the Lindsey one that I had, I don't know if everybody sell them. maybe. I know that in this kit with his chips and his configuration it works very good.
Never heard of the double ceramic bearing but if it is good I bet I will hear soon of it. (I hope :-)
Johns Turbo do not smoke and fits ok it make spower ok and it worked nice even without a MAF in the beginning. we tried it with the stock AFM and the spool up was steh same like a stock KKK. But with his MAF the turbo really wake up and not it makes serious power.
11,7 sec from 60-125 mph at 1 bar boost is a good time considering that a stock 951 needs 20 sec. Anyway everything over 0,8 bar brings the Injectors to 100% duty so my friend is waiting for bigger injectors.
Konstantin
PS let me know about your new Turbo
Johns Turbo was better than the HR or the Lindsey one that I had, I don't know if everybody sell them. maybe. I know that in this kit with his chips and his configuration it works very good.
Never heard of the double ceramic bearing but if it is good I bet I will hear soon of it. (I hope :-)
Johns Turbo do not smoke and fits ok it make spower ok and it worked nice even without a MAF in the beginning. we tried it with the stock AFM and the spool up was steh same like a stock KKK. But with his MAF the turbo really wake up and not it makes serious power.
11,7 sec from 60-125 mph at 1 bar boost is a good time considering that a stock 951 needs 20 sec. Anyway everything over 0,8 bar brings the Injectors to 100% duty so my friend is waiting for bigger injectors.
Konstantin
PS let me know about your new Turbo