crossposting this from the N/A forum. I just got a pair of 5 point harnesses and should be picking up seats this week, I know I'm going to have to weld the floor boards to install the harnesses but I don't think I'm ready to weld the frame of the car yet to install a bar. I'm ideally looking for something that bolts in and will also give some protection in a roll over event. Let me know what you have gents.

 

As far as the harness goes they can be installed without welding. Normal is to use the anchor points you have and drill holes and use backing plates where you do not have anchor points. However, I would not install the harness without a roll cage for rollover safety.

 

The car is a dual use car, it really can't be caged. Thats why I'm looking for a sturdy Roll bar. In regards to the seats, I thought those backing plates for the mounts were supposed to be welded in? I was under the impression that lots of folks ran fixed buckets with harnesses and no cage on dual use cars, and that a roll bar could (possibly) save your life in a severe accident.

 

A lot of folks do:
- A full cage w/ harness and HANS is better than a roll bar
- A roll bar w/ harness and HANS is better than a harness bar
- A harness bar w/ harness and HANS is better than belts and no HANS

We don't have data to tell us how often in DE's that cars roll over and have their roof crushed. But I've only seen one rollover in 7 years, and the roof (911 - sadly a 25th anniverary one) didn't fail. But I see a lot more cars take hard impacts. My complete and total subjective opinion on it is that I'd rather be running with a harness and a HANS even if it meant I couldn't put in a cage. You haven't mentioned a HANS, but I would highly encourage you to consider that as soon as you are able to run a harness, even if you have to delay a bar.

 

Where are you attaching the shoulder belts?

 

I responded in your other thread as well. I echo 67King, although I'm not a fan of harness bars. I'd do a good rollbar, mounted to structural steel, seats, harnesses, HANS.

My car is a dual use car, hence I haven't caged it yet, but I do have a nice back half, welded rollbar to go along with my 6 point harnesses, seats, HANS.

I've been on track since '96 and hadn't been involved in an incident until the last day of the season this past year, when I got hit by a cobra replica. I didn't roll, but I was very happy to have the safety equipment I had...

 

Shoulder belts planned to be wrapped around a roll bar and bolted to the factory rear seat belt mounts, sub belt and lap belt mounts will be reinforced for peace of mind. As Harry stated, I am much more concerned about safety in a "rapid acceleration" situation situation than I am in a roll over, but I figure it can't hurt. I am looking into neck restraints as well, but the car is more autoX at the moment than it is track so I'm less concerned about really wacking anything hard and more about being planted in the seat.

 

For clarification, I'm not suggesting anyone forego the bar. Rather, I'm saying that *my personal belief* is that if budget is a constraining factor, a proper harness with a HANS will be more likely to save your life than a roll bar if it means not using other safety items (harness/HANS). I wanted to think in the other thread budget was mentioned, and I have seen no reference to a HANS (or HANS-like device).

That said, for autocross, it is a different equation. I'm calibrated to on-track driving.

 

If you don't have a roll bar you shouldn't have harness's or a hans. you flip without one and the impact is forcful enough to cave the roof you are stuck upright making your spine a support beam. Bad.

 

http://redlinerennsport.homestead.co...guardPage.html

 

One more question. Its too late since I already got them, but am I an idiot for getting 5 point harnesses and not 6 point? I know 6 point is much easier to install since it uses factory mounts but it can't be that bad mounting a 5 point? Isn't it as simple as mounting the shoulders to the rear mounts, the laps to the factory front mounts, and then drilling a hole under the seats for the sub belt? Plus I want to retain factory belts anyway. At least the ones I got are Cam lock, I made sure of that.

 

http://shop.design1racing.com/Hardto...race-B2-HT.htm

ive been to this guy's garage and seen his products...absolutely top-notch.

 

Um, no. You are able to use only one existing anchor point, the lap belt on the outside. The seat belt receiver is attached to the seat, not the chassis. You will have to drill into the torque tube tunnel for the inner lap belt. You have to drill through the floor for both 5 and 6 points anti-sub belts. And if you do, pull up the carpet, and do NOT drill through the body plug (very common mistake). The shoulder belts have to be wrapped around something.

Could not disagree more with the opinion that one should forego a harness until they have a bar in. As I said earlier, roll-overs with enough impact ot crush the roof are many, many times less frequent than impacts where a harness with a HANS would be of great benefit. I would speculate that the frequencies are orders of magnitude different. I know there are differing opinions on this, there is anything but consensus. If you can get both, by all means, get both. But I have not seen any reference to a HANS, and if you are budget constrained, that should be the first thing you purchase, IMHO.

Another caveat is the type of roll bar you buy. If you flip and land hard enough to crush the roof, the roll bar may not do its job if it is not properly attached to the car. The platforms on which it is mounted have to provide ample support, or else they can shear off bolts, or puncture the floor, as in this picture:

 

I have seen on the average abouit 2 rollovers a year vs about 6 times a year where someone is really impacting something or someone solid. Getting off track a little side ways on a soft shoulder does not do nice things to the shiny side.

I am a firm believer in the safety equipment being systems, not bits and pieces. The safety equipment in your car right now is a system and will probably keep you safe in an autocross situation. I am assuming you want the harness to hold you in the seat as your motivator. Then in my opinion you need the entire system. Hans friendly seat with all of the necessary holes for belt access, harness, hans, and atleast a good roll bar. Of the roll bars listed the redline from rennesport appears to be set up to be a harness anchor point. You need to be careful with harness bars as some are built to be anchor points and some are not, they also give you no roll over.

I stress roll over because 944 give very little protection.

 

My dual purpose car has an autopower bolt in bar and harness with race seats. I'm in agreement with 67king. I feel like a HANS device is more likely to save my life than the roll bar. To run a HANS, you need a harness, and to have a harness you need a bar back there. Anything that bolts in is pretty much going to have the same roll over support that will be limited by the shear the bolts can handle or the floor pan. IMHO better than nothing, but not as good as a custom welded in roll bar. There are quite a few pictures of roll bars that have given good protection in Miatas that have flipped.