951 Spec to be Competitive with 997 GT3 RS
06-17-2010, 12:17 AM
#62
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Ok so if we dial it back to the land of possibility, lets go to a sprint or Time Trial event which go from 5-15 mins. Think we can get a lot closer then.
06-17-2010, 01:15 AM
#63
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Oh what I'd give for my 951 to have 130 more HP... and 2,000 more RPM... and 2" larger brakes with 4 extra pistons... and more gear selections.
06-17-2010, 10:57 AM
#64
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For the record, all my comments are based on the fact that I have driven GT3s on the track. I got to take an '04 GT3, stock, with street tires, out on the track in April - and in 5 laps, with the owner as a passenger, I was almost turning the same times as in my Turbo S track car... which I've been practicing with for 10 years!!!
Oh what I'd give for my 951 to have 130 more HP... and 2,000 more RPM... and 2" larger brakes with 4 extra pistons... and more gear selections.
Oh what I'd give for my 951 to have 130 more HP... and 2,000 more RPM... and 2" larger brakes with 4 extra pistons... and more gear selections.
06-17-2010, 11:39 AM
#65
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I don’t want to sound like I prefer the 911s – I still prefer the 944s for many reasons – including the fact that I have to develop what I want instead of ordering it from the factory catalog or from RUF or some equally expensive place. My track car is something that I built. Most of the cup car/GT3 drivers are the opposite – they are guys that just want to drive a really good car, so they bought one. If I can come close to them I feel it’s a great personal victory – I took the abandoned red headed step child and improved it to run with the fast cars! BTW – that’s one of the reasons that I class the V8 944 separately, In my mind that’s not improving the breed, its making it something different.
06-17-2010, 12:57 PM
#66
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The engine is not the problem. Matching the GT3RS output is pretty easy for those of us that actually work on the cars….
Vin numbers follow whatever they are welded to. In California you will not able to pass inspection as a ‘944’. Many other states are following that system. Some have exceptions for ‘hot rods’…
I suppose you can always just lie about it and hope not to get caught….
Really, I must have missed the 20 years of endurance racing that the 944s participated in. A couple of runs at LeMans is about it…and those weren’t stunning successes either. Broadfoot ran one at Daytona – it was a nice effort but didn’t last very long…
Actually I would love to see what you would do to make a 951 gear box last behind a well-built V8 in an endurance setting….
Palm Face? All I saw was a Lilly white hand waving around that doesn’t look like it has ever seen the business end of a wrench!
Yeah, figuring out how to set up a chassis with a set of custom spindles and hubs and a reconfigured rear suspension, shocks and springs along with a drysumped engine with a very different power curve….yeah, that will be just like setting up a GT3RS (which is not much more than picking your tire pressure)…
A simple look at lap times tells you more about the driver than the car….the truth is that most GT3 drivers are in way over their heads – the car is much better than the driver.
In the end it’s a pointless debate – you are not going to build the car of your spec so you can feel free to imagine what it could do, hell it might even break the speed of light….
Vin numbers follow whatever they are welded to. In California you will not able to pass inspection as a ‘944’. Many other states are following that system. Some have exceptions for ‘hot rods’…
I suppose you can always just lie about it and hope not to get caught….
Really, I must have missed the 20 years of endurance racing that the 944s participated in. A couple of runs at LeMans is about it…and those weren’t stunning successes either. Broadfoot ran one at Daytona – it was a nice effort but didn’t last very long…
Actually I would love to see what you would do to make a 951 gear box last behind a well-built V8 in an endurance setting….
Palm Face? All I saw was a Lilly white hand waving around that doesn’t look like it has ever seen the business end of a wrench!
Yeah, figuring out how to set up a chassis with a set of custom spindles and hubs and a reconfigured rear suspension, shocks and springs along with a drysumped engine with a very different power curve….yeah, that will be just like setting up a GT3RS (which is not much more than picking your tire pressure)…
A simple look at lap times tells you more about the driver than the car….the truth is that most GT3 drivers are in way over their heads – the car is much better than the driver.
In the end it’s a pointless debate – you are not going to build the car of your spec so you can feel free to imagine what it could do, hell it might even break the speed of light….
First, Matching the output isn't a problem but making a 944 engine reliable isn't very simple and to do it would take serious $$$ and lets not even mention what engine has more development. The new Gen IV motors are simple amazing for reliability and power.
Second, I have absolutely no problem in my state or any nearby state of throwing in any engine I want and having the title as 944
Third, Just because large teams are not developing the 944 doesn't mean we have not learned a ton about the cars shortfalls in endurance racing from privateers that run at PCA/SCCA/NASA races every year. To say the car has not developed since its release in both sprint racing and endurance racing is turning your head from every grass roots racer.
Fourth, We are not building a whole new car for the track as I mentioned earlier there has been development in the 944 chassis. That being said in any class racer rule restrictions always do as designed and restrict the potential of the car. However, without rules cars tend to speed up for far less money. So saying so and so spent so much money to compete with cars in the same class is a worthless argument. We don't have a rule book in my mind and I imagine if your friend didn't he would dismiss 911's with very little issues.
Fifth, One of my Acquaintances ran a sucessful pro team in 1999-2001 who drives a 2001 911 Cup (World Challenge aka almost RSR motor etc..) and I know his laptimes pretty well at all the local events (Mid-Ohio/Putnam Park) and I think a 944 could be made to surpass them in his hands under the specs I layed out.
06-17-2010, 05:12 PM
#68
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We are never going to agree on this subject..
First, Matching the output isn't a problem but making a 944 engine reliable isn't very simple and to do it would take serious $$$ and lets not even mention what engine has more development. The new Gen IV motors are simple amazing for reliability and power.
Second, I have absolutely no problem in my state or any nearby state of throwing in any engine I want and having the title as 944
Third, Just because large teams are not developing the 944 doesn't mean we have not learned a ton about the cars shortfalls in endurance racing from privateers that run at PCA/SCCA/NASA races every year. To say the car has not developed since its release in both sprint racing and endurance racing is turning your head from every grass roots racer.
Fourth, We are not building a whole new car for the track as I mentioned earlier there has been development in the 944 chassis. That being said in any class racer rule restrictions always do as designed and restrict the potential of the car. However, without rules cars tend to speed up for far less money. So saying so and so spent so much money to compete with cars in the same class is a worthless argument. We don't have a rule book in my mind and I imagine if your friend didn't he would dismiss 911's with very little issues.
Fifth, One of my Acquaintances ran a sucessful pro team in 1999-2001 who drives a 2001 911 Cup (World Challenge aka almost RSR motor etc..) and I know his laptimes pretty well at all the local events (Mid-Ohio/Putnam Park) and I think a 944 could be made to surpass them in his hands under the specs I layed out.
First, Matching the output isn't a problem but making a 944 engine reliable isn't very simple and to do it would take serious $$$ and lets not even mention what engine has more development. The new Gen IV motors are simple amazing for reliability and power.
Second, I have absolutely no problem in my state or any nearby state of throwing in any engine I want and having the title as 944
Third, Just because large teams are not developing the 944 doesn't mean we have not learned a ton about the cars shortfalls in endurance racing from privateers that run at PCA/SCCA/NASA races every year. To say the car has not developed since its release in both sprint racing and endurance racing is turning your head from every grass roots racer.
Fourth, We are not building a whole new car for the track as I mentioned earlier there has been development in the 944 chassis. That being said in any class racer rule restrictions always do as designed and restrict the potential of the car. However, without rules cars tend to speed up for far less money. So saying so and so spent so much money to compete with cars in the same class is a worthless argument. We don't have a rule book in my mind and I imagine if your friend didn't he would dismiss 911's with very little issues.
Fifth, One of my Acquaintances ran a sucessful pro team in 1999-2001 who drives a 2001 911 Cup (World Challenge aka almost RSR motor etc..) and I know his laptimes pretty well at all the local events (Mid-Ohio/Putnam Park) and I think a 944 could be made to surpass them in his hands under the specs I layed out.
Reminds me of 2nd graders drawing cars with crayons that go 2,000mph and then being proud of what they ‘designed’
06-17-2010, 06:04 PM
#69
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1 Kabillion Rizzos! I shall not accept failure. You're either with me or 'agin me.
Hey it's fun theorizing at the very least.
As far as Fishey descending from the mount to take free aim at all and sundry, well don't mind him, that's his gig. People like Hans, Chris, Van and others have way more experience than most of us so scorn them at your own peril Mr Fishman.
Hey it's fun theorizing at the very least.
As far as Fishey descending from the mount to take free aim at all and sundry, well don't mind him, that's his gig. People like Hans, Chris, Van and others have way more experience than most of us so scorn them at your own peril Mr Fishman.
06-17-2010, 06:11 PM
#70
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06-17-2010, 06:12 PM
#71
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So who here has been able to run 275/35/18 wheel/tires packages on non-S 951's?
I'm trying toi see how much I can squeeze into my 87 non s. TIA
I'm trying toi see how much I can squeeze into my 87 non s. TIA
06-17-2010, 10:31 PM
#72
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First, I don't see the cigarette lighter. How do we know this is really a 944?
Second, I don't see the word "VRRROOOOMMM!!!" appearing prominently, and in a large, bold typeface, under your design. Handwritten is OK, but unless it says "VRRROOOOMMM!!!" it _can't_ go any faster than 1000mph.
06-17-2010, 11:31 PM
#73
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Two things:
First, I don't see the cigarette lighter. How do we know this is really a 944?
Second, I don't see the word "VRRROOOOMMM!!!" appearing prominently, and in a large, bold typeface, under your design. Handwritten is OK, but unless it says "VRRROOOOMMM!!!" it _can't_ go any faster than 1000mph.
First, I don't see the cigarette lighter. How do we know this is really a 944?
Second, I don't see the word "VRRROOOOMMM!!!" appearing prominently, and in a large, bold typeface, under your design. Handwritten is OK, but unless it says "VRRROOOOMMM!!!" it _can't_ go any faster than 1000mph.
06-18-2010, 12:03 AM
#74
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06-18-2010, 01:14 AM
#75
I have an RS, a stock 951 and a 951 expected to have output of around 400 hp along with a 993.
Enjoy each of them for there unique personalities, the 951 with chip is faster on the track than the 993 more torque etc.
Did not read all the posts but for sure you will never get all the qualities of the RS, fast revving, high revving, best feature is the agility or nimbleness of the RS out of the 951 and all things are balanced.
On the other hand unless you are a highly skilled driver the 951 as we all know has a balance advantage regardless of the 20 year advancement in suspension technology physics etc. you can push the older car harder with more confidence at the limit, and if things go wrong your losses will be far less.
Enjoy each of them for there unique personalities, the 951 with chip is faster on the track than the 993 more torque etc.
Did not read all the posts but for sure you will never get all the qualities of the RS, fast revving, high revving, best feature is the agility or nimbleness of the RS out of the 951 and all things are balanced.
On the other hand unless you are a highly skilled driver the 951 as we all know has a balance advantage regardless of the 20 year advancement in suspension technology physics etc. you can push the older car harder with more confidence at the limit, and if things go wrong your losses will be far less.