eclou

it is possible for track to be competitive. Weston here runs a 3.0l 951 track-only car and can school most GT3's on the track short of a GT3 Cup car. In this video he is leading me in my 700 hp 997 turbo and a friend's 600 hp 997 GT2 for a couple laps around TWS:

http://www.vimeo.com/2076314

Max Energy

Lou,
Did you ever make the decision to install a LS/V8 in the 951?
Max
225 573-0664
maxenergy@***.net

333pg333

lol, I just had to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX99Ac_Yie4

eclou

wow nice battle. The RS got saved by the flag

333pg333

To be honest that guy held me up, but his car is quicker than mine. On a short track like this I could keep with it, but in the hands of a top driver he should have beaten me by a couple of seconds per lap.

To make our cars as quick as one of these is a question that has more than one answer. As Van and others have covered. It's not the power to weight issue, it's mostly the tech that's the difference. I went in a 996 GT3 on the same weekend and was amazed at how good it was. Balance, grip, drive out of corners, and power all combine to make these cars very good. I think without a major motor build we can get close to them. With a decent 3L motor we can beat them, but I'd want it to be as light and strong as possible too.

DanR

put a GT3 in the hands of a good shoe and see what it does as I suspect there are MANY seconds being left on the table

eclou

The 951 has the advantage of better weight distribution and less "pendulum effect" of the *** of the 911. Even the GT3's (I had a 2007) still have a bit of that though they have dialed out alot of it. The stock GT3's have way underspec'd front rubber which really hampers turn-in and leads to understeer. To neutralize the inherent suspension advantage of the newer GT3's I think you would need:

1)full cage tied into the front shock mounts and rear subframe as much as possible. This will greatly increase the torsional stiffness of the chassis

2)good 2-3 way adjustables such as a Leda, Moton, JRZ

3)stuff in as much rubber as possible - 275's in front if you can

4)340-380 rwhp depending on how much weight you can strip out of the car

Van

That's right - "ur mad skillz" will make the biggest difference. I frequently pass GT3s with my 951 in DEs... But they're still much faster cars. I know, because I have a friend who has let me take his GT3 out a few times - and I'm faster in his car than in my own car (that's with me being careful of his car and with him riding along!).

Fishey

Why are we even talking about PCA racing classes? Its not relivent seeing as how we don't have to play by the rules. They are street cars and your clearly modifying the 944 and can do so without a rule book.

The fact remains that given the price of a GT3 RS its performance isn't going to exceede a 944 with a budget lower then that price. The GT3 RS is a steel body car with a front suspension that really isn't very different in design then that of the 944. The 944's rear suspension can be totally redesigned as Kolken has already done bringing in a much more modern design package. The chassis design of the RS surely is better but simple bracing and seem welding of the 944 will reduce that advantage significantly when done properly.

Van

The PCA stock class rules are determined on Porsche's published HP and weight figures. It was the best thing at my disposal to show the HP/weight ratios of the cars.

If you have a destination in mind, first you need to find your start point so you can calculate the distance to get there.

The OP has asked the question: how do I make a 951 as fast as a 997 GT3 RS? I felt a comparison of both cars in stock form was relevant to show the nature of the request. Of course, it's not applicable if you're starting out with a car like TonyG's... but then it's also not applicable if you're starting out with a modified 997 GT3 RS.

DanR

Cup cars run almost the same width front tire in race form, I suspect it is more setup than tire

User 52121

I think by the time you modified a 951 to be "competitive" with a GT3 RS given equal drivers, it would hardly be a 951 anymore.

While truthfully I have no idea with respect to the particular videos posted above... I see a LOT of these DE videos with car x "keeping up with" car y even though they shouldn't be. IMO it does NOT mean that car x is truly better or faster than car y. It just means that the driver in car x is an awesome driver, or the driver in car y is just a flipping idiot. Also... I'd bet a paycheck that it's MUCH HARDER to drive a 700hp 997 Turbo around a course quickly than it would be to drive a 400hp 951. The power will help, but the resulting extra speed will result most likely in over-braking, timidness when applying throttle, etc.

Fact of the matter is... DRIVER is a HUGE factor. Stick my 6 year old behind the wheel of a new GT3 RSR and I could probably beat him around a road course on my bicycle. Extreme example but I think it makes my point.

I think the only way you really could get a true idea is to follow DanR's example. If you have a cluster if similarly prepared cars (such as a bunch of 944 Turbo Cup replicas) running against a different cluster of similarly prepared cars (such as a 993 Cup or whatever), THEN you're more likely to get a fairer comparison.

Duke

The 50/50 weight distribution being optimal is a myth..
But it's easier to drive and that's why a professional driver makes an even bigger difference in the 911's.

333pg333

Just to point out that posting that clip wasn't an attempt to say me or my car is better than the other guy / car, it was just an opportunity to post a relevant video. On this tight track the GT3 does still have some advantages. As Duke points out, the 50/50 isn't always the best way. The rear engined cars get a lot of drive out of the corners, especially uphill. It can also help when braking. The GT3 is an awesome car no doubt. If we want to make our cars as good or better / faster times, it can be done pretty easily...but it will cost a bit. Will you spend as much as the purchase price on a GT3? That depends on where you live. :

hot-J

There are plenty of capable cars here on rennlist that will do the same thing you are talking about. I do the work myself and have about 30k in parts, picking up nice pieces used where I can..... and will smoke a gt3rs on or off the track. Its possible.