E-85 MEGA THREAD
#121
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I have a quick quistion, and I can't find it in search.
For a school project I with a buddy are converting a 944 turbo engine to E85.
Using a DTA S60 PRO. The engine is totally stock. I know if I want to run on E85 it isn't a problem for the head and valves. But he and the project leader, are saying the valves and the valve seats and valve guides will not withstand the heat, and that the E85 will effect the metal. Does anyone have some hard facts to oppose these idea's.![hiha](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/roflmao.gif)
Etienne
For a school project I with a buddy are converting a 944 turbo engine to E85.
Using a DTA S60 PRO. The engine is totally stock. I know if I want to run on E85 it isn't a problem for the head and valves. But he and the project leader, are saying the valves and the valve seats and valve guides will not withstand the heat, and that the E85 will effect the metal. Does anyone have some hard facts to oppose these idea's.
![hiha](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/roflmao.gif)
Etienne
#122
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I've also been trying to get my afrs into the low 11's / high 10's but I wonder if this isn't a bit rich even at WOT / high rpms?
#124
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Sooooooooo tired of crap information like that. If you soak the head and valves in E-85. for a year or longer, Maybe. Your coolant is doing much more damage than this fuel ever will. And for E-85 to be harmful, some moisture / water must be present. And that is completey avoidable. I can go on, and on.. but I really just want to sum it all up with.. The "know it alls" clarly don't know it all. If it is truly a project, go prove them wrong, but apparently there's so much more you need to study up on. Hard to find any useful info though. Clear conspiracy.
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#125
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Sooooooooo tired of crap information like that. If you soak the head and valves in E-85. for a year or longer, Maybe. Your coolant is doing much more damage than this fuel ever will. And for E-85 to be harmful, some moisture / water must be present. And that is completey avoidable. I can go on, and on.. but I really just want to sum it all up with.. The "know it alls" clarly don't know it all. If it is truly a project, go prove them wrong, but apparently there's so much more you need to study up on. Hard to find any useful info though. Clear conspiracy.![Smilie](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
![Smilie](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
E85 is the SHT.
#126
Race Car
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Looks very similar to a head off my motor recently. White valves and what we believe was headlift. Cometic h/g resealed and got me home from the track and then some after that! Amazing. I've been seeing higher boost though. Up to 1.5bar. I wonder if these motors in stock form can take this sort of psi for any duration?
I've also been trying to get my afrs into the low 11's / high 10's but I wonder if this isn't a bit rich even at WOT / high rpms?
I've also been trying to get my afrs into the low 11's / high 10's but I wonder if this isn't a bit rich even at WOT / high rpms?
I LOVE Ethanol.....
#127
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Sooooooooo tired of crap information like that. If you soak the head and valves in E-85. for a year or longer, Maybe. Your coolant is doing much more damage than this fuel ever will. And for E-85 to be harmful, some moisture / water must be present. And that is completey avoidable. I can go on, and on.. but I really just want to sum it all up with.. The "know it alls" clarly don't know it all. If it is truly a project, go prove them wrong, but apparently there's so much more you need to study up on. Hard to find any useful info though. Clear conspiracy.![Smilie](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
![Smilie](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
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#128
Race Car
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Two problems with E85 and valvetrain. One affects the intake valve, the other, the exhaust. First, the exhaust. Gasoline contains naturally lubricating components that make the exhaust valve less prone to wear. Yes, I mean exhaust. No, I don't understand it, I just saw it when I was working on a Flex Fuel application (used to do engine development at Ford), and the fuel experts knew about the properties. Anyway, we used Inconel valves and Brico valve seats. They were hard enough to give us long term durability. There were 8 exhaust valves, not just four, and the applications were in the neighborhood of 300 horsepower. Just since that was brought up.
The other issue was much less frequent, but it had to be addressed. Ethanol can lean into the crevice between the intake valve seat, and the cylinder head. When it does, it will attack the valve seat, and cause corrosion. Considering where that happens, the concern is that the seat can come out. Much more minor issue, but very real.
Having said all of that.......this was an OEM application, with very tough durability requirements. I don't want to get sidetracked, as I'm sure that has some of you scratching your head. But, Ford has incredibly tough engine durability requirements, especially for trucks.
Stoich for E85 is closer to 9:1. 11-ish:1 is still WAY lean. LBT (Leanest mixture for Best Torque) on a gasoline engine is usually around 12.5-13.0:1, but turbos usually run more rich for durability. I'm not positive on this point, but I believe that E85 engines run best at stoich, rather than rich.
The other issue was much less frequent, but it had to be addressed. Ethanol can lean into the crevice between the intake valve seat, and the cylinder head. When it does, it will attack the valve seat, and cause corrosion. Considering where that happens, the concern is that the seat can come out. Much more minor issue, but very real.
Having said all of that.......this was an OEM application, with very tough durability requirements. I don't want to get sidetracked, as I'm sure that has some of you scratching your head. But, Ford has incredibly tough engine durability requirements, especially for trucks.
Stoich for E85 is closer to 9:1. 11-ish:1 is still WAY lean. LBT (Leanest mixture for Best Torque) on a gasoline engine is usually around 12.5-13.0:1, but turbos usually run more rich for durability. I'm not positive on this point, but I believe that E85 engines run best at stoich, rather than rich.
#129
Race Car
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~.78 lambda is what we are referring to, just to be clear. The conversion factors sometimes cause confusion.
Ethanol is best rich not right at stoich from my experience, unless you are looking for best mileage.
I haven't seen any problems with valve seats or valves and I have had 3 engines (porsche) apart that have been run on e 85 for over a year each. One was run for 3 years as a DD
Ethanol is best rich not right at stoich from my experience, unless you are looking for best mileage.
I haven't seen any problems with valve seats or valves and I have had 3 engines (porsche) apart that have been run on e 85 for over a year each. One was run for 3 years as a DD
#130
Drifting
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Going to be glued to this thread from here on out. I'll be another person making the switch to E-85. My closest station is 22 miles from my house. Luckily I work a half mile away. Kansas city region has 3 pumps total I believe, but the fact I work by a station is awesome.
My main concern is just when there's some 93 and some E-85 mixed in the tank. I'd HATE to have to run STRICTLY E-85. Like if I'm on a road trip and there aren't any pumps around...I want to be able to run 93 with no problems. Will I have to re-tune the car in this scenario?
My main concern is just when there's some 93 and some E-85 mixed in the tank. I'd HATE to have to run STRICTLY E-85. Like if I'm on a road trip and there aren't any pumps around...I want to be able to run 93 with no problems. Will I have to re-tune the car in this scenario?
#131
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So if we look at the stoich value at somewhere between 8 & 9, what is the lambda at those afrs? I feel like there is some sluggishness at certain parts running in the high 10s but that also could be my present map. Needs some attention.
So when running E85, are we to expect the valves to always look chalky white as if it's been running really lean?
So when running E85, are we to expect the valves to always look chalky white as if it's been running really lean?
#132
Rennlist Member
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Going to be glued to this thread from here on out. I'll be another person making the switch to E-85. My closest station is 22 miles from my house. Luckily I work a half mile away. Kansas city region has 3 pumps total I believe, but the fact I work by a station is awesome.
My main concern is just when there's some 93 and some E-85 mixed in the tank. I'd HATE to have to run STRICTLY E-85. Like if I'm on a road trip and there aren't any pumps around...I want to be able to run 93 with no problems. Will I have to re-tune the car in this scenario?
My main concern is just when there's some 93 and some E-85 mixed in the tank. I'd HATE to have to run STRICTLY E-85. Like if I'm on a road trip and there aren't any pumps around...I want to be able to run 93 with no problems. Will I have to re-tune the car in this scenario?
#133
Race Car
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A friend of mine with a beater Saab (80's 900 Turbo) just swapped out injectors, and ran E85. That was it. I suppose just swapping them out if you get in a bind would be another way to do it.
#134
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You need way more fuel than a normal pump gas map. So it's not just a matter of swapping in larger injs. If you do that....engine go boom.
#135
Drifting
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So essentially, to run E-85 absolutely worry free...I'll need to carry a laptop with me wherever I may go?
Acer and other companies have some very nice mini-laptops out now for only a few hundred dollars. I also have an AT&T air card, so Internet anywhere essentially. I have seen quite a few E-85 guys in the KC area using these mini's. Would it be possible to wire up a switch though?
Acer and other companies have some very nice mini-laptops out now for only a few hundred dollars. I also have an AT&T air card, so Internet anywhere essentially. I have seen quite a few E-85 guys in the KC area using these mini's. Would it be possible to wire up a switch though?