Dyno results for Georges car-529WHP @ 23.4 psi
06-20-2008, 09:08 AM
#61
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Let me catch up on some questions on the tec stuff –
The TecGT is approx $400 cheaper than the tec3r (in reality the tec3r went up $200 when the GT came out!)
The Tec3R has enough drivers to run a 12 cylinder engine, Electromotive noticed that a lot of their customers were not running 12s or even 8s so they figured they could make a ‘smaller’ unit.
They also made some very nice changes. The Tec3r has 4 ‘general purpose inputs’ – GPIs and 4 ‘general purpose outputs’ – GPOs. These are programmable inputs/outputs that can be used for lots of things. I use one input to sense the A/C on to adjust the idle speed. I use the outputs to turn cooling fans on, shift lights, and lot s of other things. The TecGT now allows you to choose the function of the circuit from input to output so you have a total of 8 that can be assigned to either input or output. This is good because I use the outputs a lot more than inputs.
The GT can run a 4 cylinder in full sequential and it will do anything the tec3r will do. It also has the new user interface – a much nicer software setup. This will be ported over to the tec3r line sooner or later.
The TecGT is approx $400 cheaper than the tec3r (in reality the tec3r went up $200 when the GT came out!)
The Tec3R has enough drivers to run a 12 cylinder engine, Electromotive noticed that a lot of their customers were not running 12s or even 8s so they figured they could make a ‘smaller’ unit.
They also made some very nice changes. The Tec3r has 4 ‘general purpose inputs’ – GPIs and 4 ‘general purpose outputs’ – GPOs. These are programmable inputs/outputs that can be used for lots of things. I use one input to sense the A/C on to adjust the idle speed. I use the outputs to turn cooling fans on, shift lights, and lot s of other things. The TecGT now allows you to choose the function of the circuit from input to output so you have a total of 8 that can be assigned to either input or output. This is good because I use the outputs a lot more than inputs.
The GT can run a 4 cylinder in full sequential and it will do anything the tec3r will do. It also has the new user interface – a much nicer software setup. This will be ported over to the tec3r line sooner or later.
06-20-2008, 09:34 AM
#62
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Hi Tom,
Garrity doesn't read the lists. I can't respond to DF's boost hitting sooner, but I can state where the 83lb injectors ran out of flow. Glad to hear that Garrity helped you in the past. I like him and his work. He is a very talented engineer and he did a great job on my motor.
We ran out of fuel at 20psi of boost with this setup. This was with 117 degrees of intake temps with about 480 wheel hp. The TEC GT couldn't give the injectors any more fuel. They hit 100% duty cycle at this hp level. Granted, this was a tuning dyno, and the numbers are about 15% less than an actual dynojet. They were at 100% duty cycle at this boost level using 110 octane fuel. Tim was able to increase the fuel pressure to compensate, but this was not ideal in any real world enviornment. With 1000cc injectors, we could have made the power with consistent relaible fuel pressure, as long as my fuel pump was up to the task. With 1000cc injectors, we would have seen about 600+ whp. Too much for my car in it's current state.
Yes, my intake valves are bigger than stock. PM me and I'll give you the particulars, but it really doesn't matter with these 8V heads. Well it does, but I told Garrity I'd keep some things off line.
To answer your question, you can get about 480 true wheel hp out of 83lb injectors at 3 bar fuel pressure, using race fuel. Anything above this is just excessive fuel pressure, and that won't cut any track enviornment. I've seen stock 951 injectors hit 400whp, but you probably know this is just excessive fuel pressure, not consistent reliable injector capacity. We don't want puking, hot injectors spitting fuel because we are stuffing their throats with bile.
I only know a little about what you are building, and you probably need more capacity than 83cc injectors. 1000cc injectors will flow up to 600whp.
Yeah, you can make the more power with less, but injectors are cheap compared to the results of relying of fuel pressure for the power you are seeking in your car.
Your project is amazing. Looking forward to seeing the results of your hard work.
Regards,
George
Garrity doesn't read the lists. I can't respond to DF's boost hitting sooner, but I can state where the 83lb injectors ran out of flow. Glad to hear that Garrity helped you in the past. I like him and his work. He is a very talented engineer and he did a great job on my motor.
We ran out of fuel at 20psi of boost with this setup. This was with 117 degrees of intake temps with about 480 wheel hp. The TEC GT couldn't give the injectors any more fuel. They hit 100% duty cycle at this hp level. Granted, this was a tuning dyno, and the numbers are about 15% less than an actual dynojet. They were at 100% duty cycle at this boost level using 110 octane fuel. Tim was able to increase the fuel pressure to compensate, but this was not ideal in any real world enviornment. With 1000cc injectors, we could have made the power with consistent relaible fuel pressure, as long as my fuel pump was up to the task. With 1000cc injectors, we would have seen about 600+ whp. Too much for my car in it's current state.
Yes, my intake valves are bigger than stock. PM me and I'll give you the particulars, but it really doesn't matter with these 8V heads. Well it does, but I told Garrity I'd keep some things off line.
To answer your question, you can get about 480 true wheel hp out of 83lb injectors at 3 bar fuel pressure, using race fuel. Anything above this is just excessive fuel pressure, and that won't cut any track enviornment. I've seen stock 951 injectors hit 400whp, but you probably know this is just excessive fuel pressure, not consistent reliable injector capacity. We don't want puking, hot injectors spitting fuel because we are stuffing their throats with bile.
I only know a little about what you are building, and you probably need more capacity than 83cc injectors. 1000cc injectors will flow up to 600whp.
Yeah, you can make the more power with less, but injectors are cheap compared to the results of relying of fuel pressure for the power you are seeking in your car.
Your project is amazing. Looking forward to seeing the results of your hard work.
Regards,
George
The Tec3 sounds like a good decision too.
06-20-2008, 08:10 PM
#63
Tim - with the pearson fuels depot on El Cajon Boulevard by the 15, I am suprised you don't experiment with the E85. Should do as well or better than the 110 race gas - but for 3.50 a gallon.
06-22-2008, 03:58 AM
#64
Drifting
Just got the car back to Tucson from San Diego. Long drive. Got about 25mpg hauling ***. Thank my V1 for keeping me out of any issues. The V1 detector is awesome. Found every Highway Patrol.
Car is fun, but I was really tired from two days of working on the car in 110 degree heat and very little sleep. This thing moves at 15psi. Now I have to learn about the TEC, new boost controller, and some other new things.
Now I get to finish up what I started a year ago.
George
Car is fun, but I was really tired from two days of working on the car in 110 degree heat and very little sleep. This thing moves at 15psi. Now I have to learn about the TEC, new boost controller, and some other new things.
Now I get to finish up what I started a year ago.
George
06-22-2008, 05:18 AM
#65
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Just got the car back to Tucson from San Diego. Long drive. Got about 25mpg hauling ***. Thank my V1 for keeping me out of any issues. The V1 detector is awesome. Found every Highway Patrol.
Car is fun, but I was really tired from two days of working on the car in 110 degree heat and very little sleep. This thing moves at 15psi. Now I have to learn about the TEC, new boost controller, and some other new things.
Now I get to finish up what I started a year ago.
George
Car is fun, but I was really tired from two days of working on the car in 110 degree heat and very little sleep. This thing moves at 15psi. Now I have to learn about the TEC, new boost controller, and some other new things.
Now I get to finish up what I started a year ago.
George
06-22-2008, 10:06 AM
#66
Really glad to hear you've got it home, but man you sound knackered after that drive. How far, how long was it?
More importantly - tell us more about the car now you've driven it again
More importantly - tell us more about the car now you've driven it again
06-22-2008, 11:20 AM
#67
The motor is a 968 block based 3.0 motor. The builder has been building these motors and other blown motors for a long time. Garrity used to teach the 951 engine building class for PCA. We sent the block to http://www.uschrome.com/nicom_ds.html for Nicom plating in the cylinder walls. We used Ross Racing forged pistons that were built to our specifications for this application. We also used forged Oliver rods built to our specifications. The crank was a new 968 unit that was lightened and balanced. Garrity's machine work was really nice.
We installed oil squirters and some other things. One interesting thing that Garrity did, that I wasn't too keen with was he used a 3MM cometic gasket to allow the pistons to come out of the top of the block just a tad. He told me he gets a much better rod angle, and better overall performance. He told me that this allows more boost without being as detonation prone. The head is a mildly worked 2.7 NA with factory 951 exhaust valves and big intake valves. We are also using a new ground STOCK 951 cam. I didn't see the need for solid lifters, as I felt Tim's headers would get the power up high and didn't want the mainteniance issues with solid lifters and aggressive cam.
Guess he is right, as Tim could not get the car to ping. Ran 18psi on 91 fuel with no issues. You can't use anything other than a 3mm gasket, or you will have pistons contacting the the head.
Tim did all the tuning, turbo work, exhaust, headers, intake, tb, TEC GT install, and many other things. Much money, time, and one year it's finally done.
I'll get the suspension and other things done myself. The *** is squatting fairly badly with the Koni Sports and 968TS torsion bar. Going to install the KW 3 suspension.
We installed oil squirters and some other things. One interesting thing that Garrity did, that I wasn't too keen with was he used a 3MM cometic gasket to allow the pistons to come out of the top of the block just a tad. He told me he gets a much better rod angle, and better overall performance. He told me that this allows more boost without being as detonation prone. The head is a mildly worked 2.7 NA with factory 951 exhaust valves and big intake valves. We are also using a new ground STOCK 951 cam. I didn't see the need for solid lifters, as I felt Tim's headers would get the power up high and didn't want the mainteniance issues with solid lifters and aggressive cam.
Guess he is right, as Tim could not get the car to ping. Ran 18psi on 91 fuel with no issues. You can't use anything other than a 3mm gasket, or you will have pistons contacting the the head.
Tim did all the tuning, turbo work, exhaust, headers, intake, tb, TEC GT install, and many other things. Much money, time, and one year it's finally done.
I'll get the suspension and other things done myself. The *** is squatting fairly badly with the Koni Sports and 968TS torsion bar. Going to install the KW 3 suspension.
I have been looking into using longer rods myself and moving the pin further up in the piston to achieve the better rod angles you speak of. Did you do this in addition to using the 3mm head gasket? If so, how much were you able to move the pin up by and what length rod did you go with? What did your CR end up at with the 3mm HG?
I'm also curious as to what fuel pump you are using.
Thanks for sharing your experiences with us here... it's been really exciting seeing this all come together - Awesome!
06-22-2008, 11:26 PM
#68
Drifting
Hey Patrick,
Just work on the tuning and other little things. When the AC is on in this 110 desert heat the temps approach 210 degrees when gettin on it. I'm looking into a Griffin condensor or another modern THIN and less restrictive AC condensor.
With the AC off, and boosting hard, it stays below 200degrees. I would like it better with the AC on!!
I'm also doing some work in the dash and interior. It's about a 9, but I want it to be a 10. Redone dash in leather with piping to match the seats. Silly stuff, but this is my car and I want it to be one of the best examples of these cars. I'll still track it, it still has a rollbar, but I want what I want.
George
Just work on the tuning and other little things. When the AC is on in this 110 desert heat the temps approach 210 degrees when gettin on it. I'm looking into a Griffin condensor or another modern THIN and less restrictive AC condensor.
With the AC off, and boosting hard, it stays below 200degrees. I would like it better with the AC on!!
I'm also doing some work in the dash and interior. It's about a 9, but I want it to be a 10. Redone dash in leather with piping to match the seats. Silly stuff, but this is my car and I want it to be one of the best examples of these cars. I'll still track it, it still has a rollbar, but I want what I want.
George
06-23-2008, 02:22 PM
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Glad you made it home George.I knew you would.Wewent over the car about 5-10 times to make sure there was nothing major.It was a good time bleeding that damn coolant system though!LOL.
Tim
Tim
06-27-2008, 01:41 AM
#70
Drifting
Just got back from running the car with a friend, and my driving instructor. It's not that he is a better driver, but having him willing to sit in the passenger seat at the track helps me correct my errors.
We got some rain here today, and the temps were in the mid 70's. Went out to a deserted area and did some WOT runs from a 1st gear roll. We were hitting 100mph in about 8 seconds at 17psi rolling in first from about 5mph. Having TQ off boost allows awesome pull and spool.
I've had some fast cars, a few that were really fast. I've got to state that this car hauls ***. We have some suspension issues, or I should state necessary upgrades to get the power down at the track. The current *** squat seems to work well in the straights, but that's not the intention of this car. I still feel that this turbo is on the large side, and we are working on tuning out some of the lag with the TEC GT, and Greddy Spec B.
What I really like is that the car just sings on boost. No hesitation, no boost spikes. Everything is tight. The clutchmasters clutch is holding everything and is not a chatter box.
Anyone looking into building a 3.0 motor would be smitten at the difference as compared to stock. I drove the car to around town and to work the past two days. Off boost tq is like that of a NA 968. You can go up any hill in whatever gear you are in within obvious reason.
My friend and tuner here locally will have the car when I'm on vacation to do some additional tuning and some little nagging things all next week. Thank god I have someone that I trust to have this car without supervision. This car in the wrong hands is deadly.
There is going to be an article on this car in European Car next month. I was feeling a tad silly spending this kind of money on this car. Now that I'm driving it, I can tell you it's worth the investment if you plan on keeping the car and using it as designed.
I haven't had the car past 18psi as I want to get everything perfectly tuned. SFR did run the car to 22psi barely hitting 23 at high RPM. They got 530whp with 117 degree intake temps. In tonights weather at 18psi, the car was fast as hell. At 23psi, I don't think we would have traction till third gear.
Can't wait to get this car to the track. I'm going to Tucson Int. Dragway in a few weeks for their test and tune. My local tuner will help me get the TEC GT and boost controller dialed in. You simply can't do this on any street with a steady heart beat. I'll post the 1/4 times. I don't clutch dump, but we'll get a good idea of how the car is performing from the trap speeds.
Thanks for all those that have helped me get this project to where it is. Garrity Repta at Motorsport, Tim, Shane, and ED at Speed Force Racing did everything else. Ed at SFR was a huge help and an asset to SFR. Tim, Shane, and ED are friends, and they make a great team at www.speedforceracing.com.
Give them a shot at your business. I want to keep folks like them available for diehard car nuts like me. There are many choices for your dollar when it comes to our cars. Their parts are some of the best out there. They can turbo anything. Tim needs to get his 951 back up and running now that my car has left it's home for the past year.
Regards,
George
We got some rain here today, and the temps were in the mid 70's. Went out to a deserted area and did some WOT runs from a 1st gear roll. We were hitting 100mph in about 8 seconds at 17psi rolling in first from about 5mph. Having TQ off boost allows awesome pull and spool.
I've had some fast cars, a few that were really fast. I've got to state that this car hauls ***. We have some suspension issues, or I should state necessary upgrades to get the power down at the track. The current *** squat seems to work well in the straights, but that's not the intention of this car. I still feel that this turbo is on the large side, and we are working on tuning out some of the lag with the TEC GT, and Greddy Spec B.
What I really like is that the car just sings on boost. No hesitation, no boost spikes. Everything is tight. The clutchmasters clutch is holding everything and is not a chatter box.
Anyone looking into building a 3.0 motor would be smitten at the difference as compared to stock. I drove the car to around town and to work the past two days. Off boost tq is like that of a NA 968. You can go up any hill in whatever gear you are in within obvious reason.
My friend and tuner here locally will have the car when I'm on vacation to do some additional tuning and some little nagging things all next week. Thank god I have someone that I trust to have this car without supervision. This car in the wrong hands is deadly.
There is going to be an article on this car in European Car next month. I was feeling a tad silly spending this kind of money on this car. Now that I'm driving it, I can tell you it's worth the investment if you plan on keeping the car and using it as designed.
I haven't had the car past 18psi as I want to get everything perfectly tuned. SFR did run the car to 22psi barely hitting 23 at high RPM. They got 530whp with 117 degree intake temps. In tonights weather at 18psi, the car was fast as hell. At 23psi, I don't think we would have traction till third gear.
Can't wait to get this car to the track. I'm going to Tucson Int. Dragway in a few weeks for their test and tune. My local tuner will help me get the TEC GT and boost controller dialed in. You simply can't do this on any street with a steady heart beat. I'll post the 1/4 times. I don't clutch dump, but we'll get a good idea of how the car is performing from the trap speeds.
Thanks for all those that have helped me get this project to where it is. Garrity Repta at Motorsport, Tim, Shane, and ED at Speed Force Racing did everything else. Ed at SFR was a huge help and an asset to SFR. Tim, Shane, and ED are friends, and they make a great team at www.speedforceracing.com.
Give them a shot at your business. I want to keep folks like them available for diehard car nuts like me. There are many choices for your dollar when it comes to our cars. Their parts are some of the best out there. They can turbo anything. Tim needs to get his 951 back up and running now that my car has left it's home for the past year.
Regards,
George
06-27-2008, 04:23 AM
#71
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Great news George! All the hard work is paying off now and that long wait will fade from memory soon. Look forward to hearing further exploits on the track too.
06-27-2008, 02:26 PM
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George runn the 1/4" with your crappy *** stock suspension and you will do alot btter then withthe Kw's.LOL.Oh and put some slicks on there and you will be in the 11 second club.
06-27-2008, 02:45 PM
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