After-Market Turbos
03-01-2007, 01:52 AM
#46
Originally Posted by Porschefile
The difference is I'm not a retailer trying to peddle my products off of those claims. I have no kind of financial incentive to do so. I'm simply stating my personal experience for everyone to take as they see fit. It is 100% ignorance to think that there aren't any general comparisons you can make between different cars. There are always differences that will affect results so that another car won't turn out identical, however you're only fooling yourself if you believe that our cars are so different they can't be compared to anything else. 
And it would foolish to think that a turbo that works well on one car will work just as well on another or that "general" comparisons are at all meaningful - especially when the devil is in the details as they say. That would be like saying that RE Amemiya would be as good at tuning 951's as Jon Milledge. After all tuning is tuning right? You don't need to know what works well to be good at it, right? At this point you may not have financial gain but you do have incentive. You have staked your reputation here as being knowledgeable and started a crusade against John in particular. In my opinion no matter what John does you aren't going to give the man any credit. It is also my opinion that in your crusade you will say anything or try to mislead people in an attempt to slight John. Who's to say that you aren't currently building a GT series product for a 951? Maybe you don't have financial incentive today but how about down the road?
The best way for you to stick it to John would be to actually do something like test a GT series turbo on a 951 and report back with results that could be verified that were better than what he sells. Until that time all you are is a guy who thinks he knows it all. I won't be holding my breath though.
03-01-2007, 01:58 AM
#47
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by SoloRacer
And it would foolish to think that a turbo that works well on one car will work just as well on another or that "general" comparisons are at all meaningful - especially when the devil is in the details as they say. That would be like saying that RE Amemiya would be as good at tuning 951's as Jon Milledge. After all tuning is tuning right?
03-01-2007, 01:59 AM
#48
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by SoloRacer
Got some proof of that? On a 951? Seems you are willing to spout "I've seen" experience without giving any proof of what you have done and at the same time require John to provide more than his "I've seen" experience. Seems a bit hypocritcal to me.
Look at this scenario, John has proven what he can do with his turbo products on a 951. What exactly have you done? What have you proven works on a 951? And don't go spouting off about Nissans and Supras. I could quote a ton a stuff on RX7's that won't work the same on a 951.
You expect us to follow or believe you when there is nothing to you other than internet name and a reference book. As far as we know you could be a kid with a laptop and dreams of building a car someday. You may be smart and have read enough to know the basics of things but as for real world experience you have no proof to offer. John has hundreds of satified customers. That's his proof that what he sells works. Where is yours?
Look at this scenario, John has proven what he can do with his turbo products on a 951. What exactly have you done? What have you proven works on a 951? And don't go spouting off about Nissans and Supras. I could quote a ton a stuff on RX7's that won't work the same on a 951.
You expect us to follow or believe you when there is nothing to you other than internet name and a reference book. As far as we know you could be a kid with a laptop and dreams of building a car someday. You may be smart and have read enough to know the basics of things but as for real world experience you have no proof to offer. John has hundreds of satified customers. That's his proof that what he sells works. Where is yours?
I don't expect anyone to just blindly believe me, I expect them to think for themselves. I haven't really done much with the 951 except typical bolt-on stuff. Unfortunately I never really did any back to back tests between GT series and thrust bearing turbos that can prove, without a doubt, beyond all speculation, that what I'm saying holds any weight or not. I must confess I don't do too well with keeping detailed records on things, and I probably just have a few miscellaneous dyno sheets of varying cars laying around that really doesn't form any kind of accurate comparison. Don't believe me if you want, I really could care less. I've examined the car enough to realize where at least some inefficiencies and restrictions are from simple common sense. I'm not claiming to know it all or anything, however you don't have to be some 20+year 944 veteran or well known builder to figure much of this stuff out.
Hmm, no comments on the inconsistancies pointed out with Vitesse's claims? I clearly provided evidence of them using his own words. Guess it's easier to just ignore tough questions and attack the "heretic".
03-01-2007, 02:04 AM
#49
Originally Posted by Fishey
I am sure that with some time RE Amemiya would have the 951 doing just fine.. Also, thats like saying because I work on 944 I can't work on a RX7. Then it might shock you to know swamped with Rx7 people wanting me to work on there cars. Its amazing on what you can learn about something and how fast you can learn it considering I didn't even know how a Rx7 really worked in detail until the last few months. Now, I understand a great deal about the motors and it has been a short time and it might suprise you to know that my previous expertise really helped me understand the RX7 motor and how it works. Now, obviously there are new things to learn like exhaust gas pulses and fuel tuning etc.. but they still work on the same principals.
So who is going to teach you? If you want to learn how to do it right you go to Japan and take lessons from guys like RE Amemiya - not guys like Porschefile who have experience with Nissans and Supras. That only proves my point that what works on one thing won't necessarily apply to another.
03-01-2007, 02:08 AM
#50
Three Wheelin'
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Originally Posted by Porschefile
The difference is I'm not a retailer trying to peddle my products off of those claims. I have no kind of financial incentive to do so. I'm simply stating my personal experience for everyone to take as they see fit. It is 100% ignorance to think that there aren't any general comparisons you can make between different cars. There are always differences that will affect results so that another car won't turn out identical, however you're only fooling yourself if you believe that our cars are so different they can't be compared to anything else.
after all, all cars have the same number of cylinders, same displacement, same exhaust pressure, etc, etc. you would think someone who owns both a 930 and a 951 would acknowledge that there is a whole lot of stuff that applies to the 930 that doesn't apply to the 951 and that's in the same family.the thing is, if you were to post some dyno evidence of how much better the GT series is on a 951 along with details of the cost and time needed to make it all work and they trumped the VR turbos i would have no problems posting on that thread and saying "wow this is the way to go". fact is you've done nothing remotely close.
instead, everytime somebody makes a post about who to buy turbos from you show up and start badgering vitesse. by your own admission you're not a vendor, so you have nothing to offer these folks most of whom want a turnkey solution, but you do your best to turn them away from one of the vendors that does offer a turnkey solution.
ironically your tactic is to ask everyone to produce what you yourself have never produced. you got one thing right, a lot of rennlist is fed up. now if you could only understand what they are fed up with...
03-01-2007, 02:13 AM
#51
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by SoloRacer
So now you are going to be rebuilding and porting engines I guess too? Good luck getting it right. The majority of people here don't have a clue. Get back to me when you figure out how to tell the difference between a Series 5 and Series 6 e-shaft.
So who is going to teach you? If you want to learn how to do it right you go to Japan and take lessons from guys like RE Amemiya - not guys like Porschefile who have experience with Nissans and Supras. That only proves my point that what works on one thing won't necessarily apply to another.
So who is going to teach you? If you want to learn how to do it right you go to Japan and take lessons from guys like RE Amemiya - not guys like Porschefile who have experience with Nissans and Supras. That only proves my point that what works on one thing won't necessarily apply to another.
P.S. I really have not had alot of experience outside the S5 in terms of the motor. I have worked some what on the S4 but not yet into any detail. I will soon though. Also, since all the S6 cars are LS1 around here and I have not got the chance to tear into that model. I am sure if I got a hold of one I could tear it apart and figure out the changes. I have heard of some of the stuff they did but really don't know any of the major details. Also, does that mean I am worthless with the 13BT? I guess so by your logic. It also means that if someone brought me a S6 I would be utterly hopeless on learning how it works and how to upgrade it all by my poor self without the aid of a Japanese tuner to help me along. God, your dumb..
03-01-2007, 02:23 AM
#52
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by SoloRacer
And it would foolish to think that a turbo that works well on one car will work just as well on another or that "general" comparisons are at all meaningful - especially when the devil is in the details as they say. That would be like saying that RE Amemiya would be as good at tuning 951's as Jon Milledge. After all tuning is tuning right? You don't need to know what works well to be good at it, right? At this point you may not have financial gain but you do have incentive. You have staked your reputation here as being knowledgeable and started a crusade against John in particular. In my opinion no matter what John does you aren't going to give the man any credit. It is also my opinion that in your crusade you will say anything or try to mislead people in an attempt to slight John. Who's to say that you aren't currently building a GT series product for a 951? Maybe you don't have financial incentive today but how about down the road?
The best way for you to stick it to John would be to actually do something like test a GT series turbo on a 951 and report back with results that could be verified that were better than what he sells. Until that time all you are is a guy who thinks he knows it all. I won't be holding my breath though.
The best way for you to stick it to John would be to actually do something like test a GT series turbo on a 951 and report back with results that could be verified that were better than what he sells. Until that time all you are is a guy who thinks he knows it all. I won't be holding my breath though.
I'm very satisfied with the chips compared to the Guru and Autothority stuff I had before. No complaints there. One of his turbo setups is on the current most powerful 951 we know of, which definitely speaks for itself. Personally I would go about things a bit different, but that's a matter of personal preference. Not to mention there are plenty of other people out there that have his turbo kits, have posted dyno charts, have made plenty of decent power, and are very happy with his stuff. I'm not knocking his products, just the attitude. I just don't get a good vibe from him sometimes with the way he posts or indirectly (whether intentional or unintentional) implies certain things. Check out my post, #30 of this thread (page 2). I clearly provided factual evidence from a prior thread that he seems a bit shady at times. This is a completely valid concern considering he's a vendor. You don't see me on here knocking Scott Gomes, Tim @ SFR, Jon Milledge, or plenty of other well known people that really know the 951 as I'm sure they could care less about messing with this internet crap-throwing fest. It's not that I don't have respect for anyone (I do), it's just that I feel I've seen some things to make me question certain things that John says.Woah, I can honestly say I would never become a retailer of products for these cars, ever. With people like you as my customer base, I would be driven to insanity!
For maybe 1 minute awhile ago I thought about the possibility but, I have no desire to do that. I prefer this as a hobby as it's far easier to be financially successful with my job or related fields than a retailer of niche market car parts. Plus I just wouldn't have the patience for it. Shaheed, you are completely missing the point. Also, it's going to take me awhile to get my setup up and running. Once I reach that point, I will gladly do whatever comparison I can and would even go so far as to swap another turbo on to make an actual comparison. At this point I'm all financially tied up so things are slow going.
All of that being said, I think this thread has become artificially inflated enough. Lets just agree to disagree and stop practicing arguments in futility.
03-01-2007, 02:24 AM
#53
Originally Posted by Fishey
You make me laugh so I have to learn from someone who is Japanese to build a Rx7 now. Australians must be worthless at tuning them since they are not Japanese and the Americans are just clueless about how they work.
There are a lot of rotary mechanics who think they know what they don't really know. You have a couple of months experience and suddenly you are the expert. You won't learn in 10 years over here what the guys in Japan who have spent 25 years working on them already know.
Last edited by SoloRacer; 03-01-2007 at 02:47 AM.
03-01-2007, 02:33 AM
#54
Originally Posted by Porschefile
Won't give him any credit? Actually you're wrong, I'm not that uptight. I'll give him plenty of credit for what he's accomplished. As I've mentioned in the past, his afm and maf chips work very well, which I've personally experienced as I currently have maf chips on the car. Hey, they even worked well with the Lindsey maf! I'm very satisfied with the chips compared to the Guru and Autothority stuff I had before. No complaints there. One of his turbo setups is on the current most powerful 951 we know of, which definitely speaks for itself. Personally I would go about things a bit different, but that's a matter of personal preference. Not to mention there are plenty of other people out there that have his turbo kits, have posted dyno charts, have made plenty of decent power, and are very happy with his stuff. I'm not knocking his products, just the attitude. I just don't get a good vibe from him sometimes with the way he posts or indirectly (whether intentional or unintentional) implies certain things. Check out my post, #30 of this thread (page 2). I clearly provided factual evidence from a prior thread that he seems a bit shady at times. This is a completely valid concern considering he's a vendor. You don't see me on here knocking Scott Gomes, Tim @ SFR, Jon Milledge, or plenty of other well known people that really know the 951 as I'm sure they could care less about messing with this internet crap-throwing fest. It's not that I don't have respect for anyone (I do), it's just that I feel I've seen some things to make me question certain things that John says.
Woah, I can honestly say I would never become a retailer of products for these cars, ever. With people like you as my customer base, I would be driven to insanity! For maybe 1 minute awhile ago I thought about the possibility but, I have no desire to do that. I prefer this as a hobby as it's far easier to be financially successful with my job or related fields than a retailer of niche market car parts. Plus I just wouldn't have the patience for it.
Shaheed, you are completely missing the point. Also, it's going to take me awhile to get my setup up and running. Once I reach that point, I will gladly do whatever comparison I can and would even go so far as to swap another turbo on to make an actual comparison. At this point I'm all financially tied up so things are slow going.
All of that being said, I think this thread has become artificially inflated enough. Lets just agree to disagree and stop practicing arguments in futility.
I'm very satisfied with the chips compared to the Guru and Autothority stuff I had before. No complaints there. One of his turbo setups is on the current most powerful 951 we know of, which definitely speaks for itself. Personally I would go about things a bit different, but that's a matter of personal preference. Not to mention there are plenty of other people out there that have his turbo kits, have posted dyno charts, have made plenty of decent power, and are very happy with his stuff. I'm not knocking his products, just the attitude. I just don't get a good vibe from him sometimes with the way he posts or indirectly (whether intentional or unintentional) implies certain things. Check out my post, #30 of this thread (page 2). I clearly provided factual evidence from a prior thread that he seems a bit shady at times. This is a completely valid concern considering he's a vendor. You don't see me on here knocking Scott Gomes, Tim @ SFR, Jon Milledge, or plenty of other well known people that really know the 951 as I'm sure they could care less about messing with this internet crap-throwing fest. It's not that I don't have respect for anyone (I do), it's just that I feel I've seen some things to make me question certain things that John says.Woah, I can honestly say I would never become a retailer of products for these cars, ever. With people like you as my customer base, I would be driven to insanity!
For maybe 1 minute awhile ago I thought about the possibility but, I have no desire to do that. I prefer this as a hobby as it's far easier to be financially successful with my job or related fields than a retailer of niche market car parts. Plus I just wouldn't have the patience for it. Shaheed, you are completely missing the point. Also, it's going to take me awhile to get my setup up and running. Once I reach that point, I will gladly do whatever comparison I can and would even go so far as to swap another turbo on to make an actual comparison. At this point I'm all financially tied up so things are slow going.
All of that being said, I think this thread has become artificially inflated enough. Lets just agree to disagree and stop practicing arguments in futility.
03-01-2007, 02:33 AM
#55
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by SoloRacer
Let's put it this way.....I have a friend who has been trained in Japan by a Mazda factory tech - he even worked at the shop where RE Amemiya has his 20b race engines built. There are a lot of fine details that are not in books anywhere - the only way you learn them is from someone who has been there and done that. If you want to find out how to get maximum power out of a Chevy V8 talk to a Winston Cup guy and not a Japanese rotary builder. Does any of this make sense to you? Or are you arrogant enough to actually believe that maybe - just maybe - they guys designed and build the damn thing might know more about it than anyone else?
There are a lot of rotary mechanics who think they know what they don't really know. You have a couple of months experience and suddenly you are the expert. You won't learn in 10 years over here what the guys in Japan who have spent 25 years working on them already know.
There are a lot of rotary mechanics who think they know what they don't really know. You have a couple of months experience and suddenly you are the expert. You won't learn in 10 years over here what the guys in Japan who have spent 25 years working on them already know.
Also, I have just starting tuning Volvos in the last few years and I know things that people didn't know previous to me working on them. This includes the land that they where built in and they have alot more experience then I do with them. Then again they have access to things I don't and that is how I found out different ways to do something that ended up being better. Since they just used something from a different car that we don't have access to. So in that case I guess they must still be better though cause they are from the land the car is built? ROFL..
If things where set in stone and no new discoveries or information was found then we would still be in caves drawing on walls.
03-01-2007, 02:42 AM
#56
Originally Posted by Fishey
I am sure they know more then me but does that mean I am worthless at working on Rx7's? No.. but it still doesn't change that the same principals apply to the Rx7 as they do to the Piston motor.
Also, I have just starting tuning Volvos in the last few years and I know things that people didn't know previous to me working on them. This includes the land that they where built in and they have alot more experience then I do with them. Then again they have access to things I don't and that is how I found out different ways to do something that ended up being better. Since they just used something from a different car that we don't have access to. So in that case I guess they must still be better though cause they are from the land the car is built? ROFL..
Also, I have just starting tuning Volvos in the last few years and I know things that people didn't know previous to me working on them. This includes the land that they where built in and they have alot more experience then I do with them. Then again they have access to things I don't and that is how I found out different ways to do something that ended up being better. Since they just used something from a different car that we don't have access to. So in that case I guess they must still be better though cause they are from the land the car is built? ROFL..
03-01-2007, 02:57 AM
#57
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by SoloRacer
So you taught the Volvo factory racing guys a thing or two, eh? Give me a break - it couldn't have been anything earth shattering. I would not want you touching my RX7's, especially in a performance application. You might do OK at the basic stuff but when it gets to the fine details that make the difference between an OK engine and an unbelievable one you won't have a clue. And make no mistake, what Porschefile and yourself are talking about are the fine details that make the difference between a car making 350 hp or 450 hp. Any grease monkey could build a 944 Turbo engine but there is a reason that Milledge gets the money he does for his. He has a proven track record and for guys who need that extra 5% it's worth it.
03-01-2007, 03:04 AM
#58
You throw out a bone like "I taught those guys something" without any proof and now your upset that I question you on it? I also question your rotary engine knowledge - knowing full well that it's limited - and you get all defensive? I'm being honest and telling you that there is no way in hell you will learn what the experts in Japan know unless you actually learn from them. You won't learn these things by knowing what works on a piston engine just because both engines happen to follow the laws of physics. A lot of it has to do with proper assembly procedures for a rotary engine that are not well known. Assuming that you will become as good as them messing around with peoples cars is naive at best and arrogant at worst.
At least John is recognized as being a knowledgeable turbo guy so I can understand why he might be somewhat torqued by you and Porschefile. To my knowledge you have no proven credentials here. So what makes you better than a joke at best?
P.S. It's you're a joke.....not your a joke......
At least John is recognized as being a knowledgeable turbo guy so I can understand why he might be somewhat torqued by you and Porschefile. To my knowledge you have no proven credentials here. So what makes you better than a joke at best?
P.S. It's you're a joke.....not your a joke......
03-01-2007, 03:14 AM
#59
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by SoloRacer
You throw out a bone like "I taught those guys something" without any proof and now your upset that I question you on it? I also question your rotary engine knowledge - knowing full well that it's limited - and you get all defensive? At least John is recognized as being a knowledgeable turbo guy so I can understand why he might be somewhat torqued by you and Porschefile. But you have no proven credentials here. So what makes you better than a joke at best?
P.S. It's you're a joke.....not your a joke......
P.S. It's you're a joke.....not your a joke......
