After-Market Turbos
03-01-2007, 02:41 PM
#91
Drive-by provocation guy
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: NAS PAX River, by way of Orlando
Posts: 10,439
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by anders44
the turbo has to be sized for the application and what you want, and there is always a sacrifice of hp vs lag. a lot can be done looking at maps and doing drawings etc, but a lot of stuff works different in reallife 
I had a bmw 728 (inline 6 2.8liter) with a GT40 turbo... that was very fun for drag and iceraceing etc, but until 3500 rpm you just sat there wondering what was wrong, then BAM it hit revlimiter, very little practical, but very cheap fun!
I had a bmw 728 (inline 6 2.8liter) with a GT40 turbo... that was very fun for drag and iceraceing etc, but until 3500 rpm you just sat there wondering what was wrong, then BAM it hit revlimiter, very little practical, but very cheap fun!
03-01-2007, 02:49 PM
#92
Originally Posted by Pauerman
It's great marketing isn't it!?! Got to be a salesman to sell stuff especially when the product has gotten decent reviews.
I don't think anyone here is doubting the advertised performance gain that is achieved with a Vitesse kit - there are obviously some satisfied customers.
From a Rennlist Member and 951 enthusiast's perspective, I share Porschefile's view on the importance of vendor honesty. It has appeared to me that many of the tactics and/or claims used to sell this stuff is questionable. Is it so wrong to point out some of these disputeable statements and question them? If there have been tests done to verify that a Garrett GT Series ball bearing turbo is inferior to a "worked" Vitesse turbo shouldn't that info be advertised especially when a Vitesse turbo costs more? There are just too many variables in turbo configurations to make such a broad statement. I'm sure the community wouldn't mind seeing an advertisement like "we've done back to back testing of various turbochargers and found that our Stg X turbo outperforms Garrett's GT30R or GT3071R or GT35R." Is this too much detail to ask for? How many people here are going to question and/or verify for themselves such a bold statement? With such a satisfied customer base, why would anyone want to right??
Believe it or not, there are still guys out there that want to know what they are buying for the sole purpose of learning, understanding and gauging for themselves the kind of increase they can expect from such a modification. It's called thinking for yourself - I don't know why it is so frowned upon in this forum. Just because some of these guys are questioning the mainstream doesn't mean that they're bashing anyone or looking for secrets. Does the fact that many if not all other performance car web forums talk openly about this stuff make you wonder why it is such a taboo topic over here? I'll take a stab in the dark and say that it may have something to do with the "P" word - profit $$$$$$
I think we all have to remember that this is information sharing forum based on furthering the performance of our beloved 951s. Why does the Vendor/Sponsor issue always have to get tied up in this goal? We want to share ideas of perfomance increases but more times than not, guys with an "out of the box" attitude are looked down upon cause they've got the ***** to question something when they see it.
Enough bickering!! Let's talk about things that will raise the performance level of our cars.
I don't think anyone here is doubting the advertised performance gain that is achieved with a Vitesse kit - there are obviously some satisfied customers.
From a Rennlist Member and 951 enthusiast's perspective, I share Porschefile's view on the importance of vendor honesty. It has appeared to me that many of the tactics and/or claims used to sell this stuff is questionable. Is it so wrong to point out some of these disputeable statements and question them? If there have been tests done to verify that a Garrett GT Series ball bearing turbo is inferior to a "worked" Vitesse turbo shouldn't that info be advertised especially when a Vitesse turbo costs more? There are just too many variables in turbo configurations to make such a broad statement. I'm sure the community wouldn't mind seeing an advertisement like "we've done back to back testing of various turbochargers and found that our Stg X turbo outperforms Garrett's GT30R or GT3071R or GT35R." Is this too much detail to ask for? How many people here are going to question and/or verify for themselves such a bold statement? With such a satisfied customer base, why would anyone want to right??
Believe it or not, there are still guys out there that want to know what they are buying for the sole purpose of learning, understanding and gauging for themselves the kind of increase they can expect from such a modification. It's called thinking for yourself - I don't know why it is so frowned upon in this forum. Just because some of these guys are questioning the mainstream doesn't mean that they're bashing anyone or looking for secrets. Does the fact that many if not all other performance car web forums talk openly about this stuff make you wonder why it is such a taboo topic over here? I'll take a stab in the dark and say that it may have something to do with the "P" word - profit $$$$$$
I think we all have to remember that this is information sharing forum based on furthering the performance of our beloved 951s. Why does the Vendor/Sponsor issue always have to get tied up in this goal? We want to share ideas of perfomance increases but more times than not, guys with an "out of the box" attitude are looked down upon cause they've got the ***** to question something when they see it.
Enough bickering!! Let's talk about things that will raise the performance level of our cars.
I am all for vendor honesty. I am also all for customer honesty too. You can't just offer conjecture and supposed experience with other vehicles to call a vendors product junk. John's results are well known and well published. Porschefile and Fishey haven't published any other results for a 951 with GT series turbos or any other turbo for that matter. So for them to declare that a GT series turbo is better is pure speculation too. Then all this fantasy about building things better than factory pro's as if they are pro's themselves is almost laughable - especially since there is no substance to it. I know now that I can talk until I'm blue in the face and there is no way Fishey is going to admit that MAYBE he won't become as knowledgeable about a something that he has no clue about today as someone who has 30 years experience dealing with it.
I'm all for sharing information with the group but I also respect the vendors who have put time and effort into producing a well thought out product. Since you are a competing vendor I don't see you as being completely neutral either - after all finding out what John uses on his turbos could help you bypass all the research that may have been involved in testing different products to see what works well. I also questioned Porschefile on his neutrality and it appears that at least initially he viewed this forum as a "marketplace" and not purely from a 944 Turbo enthusiast perspective. Why any of you would have such a hard on to put down a vendor makes no sense to me. For the record I was one of the first guys to speak up about exaggerated claims. However, it wasn't John that was promoting things - it was his customers. John was in agreement with me and actually down played or qualified the claims that were being made by posting very clearly what should be expected of his products. To me this shows his character and honesty.
So if you or Porschefile or Fishey want to report on actual findings instead of vendor bashing I say go for it. Let us know real world numbers and performance results and not just "it can't be that good because I've seen better on my Nissan, etc." Not one thing that Porschefile or Fishey has said or done has raised the performance level of the 951. Porschefile doesn't even have a running car for crying out loud. His comments about XYZ turbo performing better based on what he claims to have seen elsewhere doesn't mean anything because they are on a different vehicle. All he can make are generalizations or theorize but until someone actually puts one on a 951 there are no known results. Once there are known results then we can begin to discuss what the differences in each set up are to get a true indication of how well something works compared to another. Everything else is just the usual internet chest thumping/bench racing B.S. There are guys that do (John & ST) and there are guys that criticize because they think they can do (Porschefile/Fishey). And you expect us to cut the critics some slack when they haven't actually done anything to enhance the performance of the 951? If anything we should be cutting John the slack because before he came along we didn't have as many options available to us. The only reason John is getting picked on is because the other vendors all scrammed for getting **** on like this from internet hacks. I've been here long enough to see what happened to Tim at Speedforce and David Lindsey from Lindsey Racing. And now I see the same happening to John.
03-01-2007, 03:01 PM
#93
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Official Jack off extinguisher
Posts: 1,173
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Soloracer, FYI, Lindsey, Milledge or Under pressure don't pitch on net forums..........neither do Ruf, RS tuning, the Racers group and the list goes on.
How ever,for your brave efforts I will present you with the Ritterkreuz mit Eichenlaub and Schwertern for your unparalled support and a free pass into Walhalla.Well done.
How ever,for your brave efforts I will present you with the Ritterkreuz mit Eichenlaub and Schwertern for your unparalled support and a free pass into Walhalla.Well done.
03-01-2007, 03:24 PM
#94
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by SoloRacer
I am all for vendor honesty. I am also all for customer honesty too. You can't just offer conjecture and supposed experience with other vehicles to call a vendors product junk. John's results are well known and well published. Porschefile and Fishey haven't published any other results for a 951 with GT series turbos or any other turbo for that matter. So for them to declare that a GT series turbo is better is pure speculation too. Then all this fantasy about building things better than factory pro's as if they are pro's themselves is almost laughable - especially since there is no substance to it. I know now that I can talk until I'm blue in the face and there is no way Fishey is going to admit that MAYBE he won't become as knowledgeable about a something that he has no clue about today as someone who has 30 years experience dealing with it.
I'm all for sharing information with the group but I also respect the vendors who have put time and effort into producing a well thought out product. Since you are a competing vendor I don't see you as being completely neutral either - after all finding out what John uses on his turbos could help you bypass all the research that may have been involved in testing different products to see what works well. I also questioned Porschefile on his neutrality and it appears that at least initially he viewed this forum as a "marketplace" and not purely from a 944 Turbo enthusiast perspective. Why any of you would have such a hard on to put down a vendor makes no sense to me. For the record I was one of the first guys to speak up about exaggerated claims. However, it wasn't John that was promoting things - it was his customers. John was in agreement with me and actually down played or qualified the claims that were being made by posting very clearly what should be expected of his products. To me this shows his character and honesty.
So if you or Porschefile or Fishey want to report on actual findings instead of vendor bashing I say go for it. Let us know real world numbers and performance results and not just "it can't be that good because I've seen better on my Nissan, etc." Not one thing that Porschefile or Fishey has said or done has raised the performance level of the 951. Porschefile doesn't even have a running car for crying out loud. His comments about XYZ turbo performing better based on what he claims to have seen elsewhere doesn't mean anything because they are on a different vehicle. All he can make are generalizations or theorize but until someone actually puts one on a 951 there are no known results. Once there are known results then we can begin to discuss what the differences in each set up are to get a true indication of how well something works compared to another. Everything else is just the usual internet chest thumping/bench racing B.S. There are guys that do (John & ST) and there are guys that criticize because they think they can do (Porschefile/Fishey). And you expect us to cut the critics some slack when they haven't actually done anything to enhance the performance of the 951? If anything we should be cutting John the slack because before he came along we didn't have as many options available to us. The only reason John is getting picked on is because the other vendors all scrammed for getting **** on like this from internet hacks. I've been here long enough to see what happened to Tim at Speedforce and David Lindsey from Lindsey Racing. And now I see the same happening to John.
I'm all for sharing information with the group but I also respect the vendors who have put time and effort into producing a well thought out product. Since you are a competing vendor I don't see you as being completely neutral either - after all finding out what John uses on his turbos could help you bypass all the research that may have been involved in testing different products to see what works well. I also questioned Porschefile on his neutrality and it appears that at least initially he viewed this forum as a "marketplace" and not purely from a 944 Turbo enthusiast perspective. Why any of you would have such a hard on to put down a vendor makes no sense to me. For the record I was one of the first guys to speak up about exaggerated claims. However, it wasn't John that was promoting things - it was his customers. John was in agreement with me and actually down played or qualified the claims that were being made by posting very clearly what should be expected of his products. To me this shows his character and honesty.
So if you or Porschefile or Fishey want to report on actual findings instead of vendor bashing I say go for it. Let us know real world numbers and performance results and not just "it can't be that good because I've seen better on my Nissan, etc." Not one thing that Porschefile or Fishey has said or done has raised the performance level of the 951. Porschefile doesn't even have a running car for crying out loud. His comments about XYZ turbo performing better based on what he claims to have seen elsewhere doesn't mean anything because they are on a different vehicle. All he can make are generalizations or theorize but until someone actually puts one on a 951 there are no known results. Once there are known results then we can begin to discuss what the differences in each set up are to get a true indication of how well something works compared to another. Everything else is just the usual internet chest thumping/bench racing B.S. There are guys that do (John & ST) and there are guys that criticize because they think they can do (Porschefile/Fishey). And you expect us to cut the critics some slack when they haven't actually done anything to enhance the performance of the 951? If anything we should be cutting John the slack because before he came along we didn't have as many options available to us. The only reason John is getting picked on is because the other vendors all scrammed for getting **** on like this from internet hacks. I've been here long enough to see what happened to Tim at Speedforce and David Lindsey from Lindsey Racing. And now I see the same happening to John.
2. The major information I have learned about the S2 motor will never be published on this board for a few reasons.
3. Money is the limit to everything because eventually you need money to make it all work. I don't have the money (Poor college student) to do a lot of things I would like to do on my own car let alone a 951 project (and I don't even own a 951)
4. I agree with pole position.
03-01-2007, 03:24 PM
#95
Originally Posted by pole position
Soloracer, FYI, Lindsey, Milledge or Under pressure don't pitch on net forums..........neither do Ruf, RS tuning, the Racers group and the list goes on.
How ever,for your brave efforts I will present you with the Ritterkreuz mit Eichenlaub and Schwertern for your unparalled support and a free pass into Walhalla.Well done.
How ever,for your brave efforts I will present you with the Ritterkreuz mit Eichenlaub and Schwertern for your unparalled support and a free pass into Walhalla.Well done.
03-01-2007, 03:25 PM
#96
Rocket Scientist
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I don't care about all this. I just want to see the actual data that was gathered by John that backs up the claims him and ST made. I'd like this because when I buy a turbo, I want to make sure I'm not wasting money somewhere. I want to know I'm not being misled. I don't mind paying top notch prices for top notch parts. But I'd like it to be proven that they are top notch parts. Just looking for them to follow through with their claims is all. Although, I figure that if we haven't seen them by now we won't be seeing them. Which is why I highly doubt they were ever tested back to back. Everyone here is calling Porschefile out on saying that he thinks the GT-Series will outperform Vitesse turbos. Saying he has no proof. Am I the only person asking John to back up his and ST's claim? It's only fair to call out both or neither of them. You're asking Porschefile for his experience, his information. What about Vitesse?
03-01-2007, 03:29 PM
#97
Originally Posted by 9fitty1
I don't care about all this. I just want to see the actual data that was gathered by John that backs up the claims him and ST made. I'd like this because when I buy a turbo, I want to make sure I'm not wasting money somewhere. I want to know I'm not being misled. I don't mind paying top notch prices for top notch parts. But I'd like it to be proven that they are top notch parts. Just looking for them to follow through with their claims is all. Although, I figure that if we haven't seen them by now we won't be seeing them. Which is why I highly doubt they were ever tested back to back. Everyone here is calling Porschefile out on saying that he thinks the GT-Series will outperform Vitesse turbos. Saying he has no proof. Am I the only person asking John to back up his and ST's claim? It's only fair to call out both or neither of them. You're asking Porschefile for his experience, his information. What about Vitesse?
Do a search.
03-01-2007, 03:31 PM
#98
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Official Jack off extinguisher
Posts: 1,173
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Originally Posted by SoloRacer
You only joined in 2004. Prior to that Lindsey and SFR did pitch here and eventually left. RUF is an auto manufacturer - notice that Porsche, Chevy and Ford don't pitch here either. Milledge doesn't have many clients here so pitching here makes not sense to him. RS Tuning and Racers Group also don't have many people here. Nice effort and but since you are a relative newbie around here and haven't seen the vendor wars back when Lindsey/SFR/Huntley were posting I'm willing cut you some slack.
03-01-2007, 03:43 PM
#99
Originally Posted by pole position
You are dreaming, those guys don't pitch, period, the present counts not what happened in the stone age and I have been around the P world longer than you, guaranteed. A join up date on a forum means jack when it comes to knowledge as you have proven time over time again.
Damn, you're an angry guy.
03-01-2007, 03:45 PM
#100
Originally Posted by pole position
You are dreaming, those guys don't pitch, period, the present counts not what happened in the stone age and I have been around the P world longer than you, guaranteed. A join up date on a forum means jack when it comes to knowledge as you have proven time over time again.
As for the comment from 9fiffty1 about getting a top notch product I have this to say. Do you know anyone who is offering a bolt on GT series product for our cars? Do you know of any results of this turbo on our cars? John, Lindsey, etc have put their results up there for all to see. If they aren't good enough for you or too expensive for you then don't buy them. If you think there is a better product go ahead and buy it. Nobody is forcing you to spend your money. You decide where it goes. There will always be some internet gangster who thinks they have the latest and greatest. But the onus of proof should be on the critic don't you think? Instead of vendor bashing what these guys need to do is give us actual results - otherwise they are just wasting everyones time. If I gave a seminar on why XYZ turbo should be better than ZYX turbo it would mean nothing unless proven on our cars. Lots of things sound good in theory but don't always work as well in implementation.
03-01-2007, 04:06 PM
#102
Addict
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Originally Posted by pole position
Soloracer, FYI, Lindsey, Milledge or Under pressure don't pitch on net forums..........neither do Ruf, RS tuning, the Racers group and the list goes on.
How ever,for your brave efforts I will present you with the Ritterkreuz mit Eichenlaub and Schwertern for your unparalled support and a free pass into Walhalla.Well done.
How ever,for your brave efforts I will present you with the Ritterkreuz mit Eichenlaub and Schwertern for your unparalled support and a free pass into Walhalla.Well done.
Luckily we lost Danno and Anderson, as well as Huntley.
03-01-2007, 04:12 PM
#103
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
Rennlist Member
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
To be clear. I never said GT turbos are bad, however on a 951 I rather use Vitesse turbos.
GT turbos require motor mount modification or an adapter, they require exhaust mods as they have a different geometry, the oil feed must change.... You damage a GT turbo, the center cartridge is fairly expensive to replace...
Vitesse Turbos bolt up directly, no need to modify: the factory exhaust, motor mount, oil feed. I still say, for the 951, you will have a hard time finding a better performing turbo. Look at the big picture here. VR turbos bolt up with minimum mods, spool up nicely and perform great. Look at the whole package.
VR customers share with everyone what performance gains they were able to get. There is ST (a customer) who made 500+rwhp with a stock S3 turbo (other engine mods were needed). We also post the dyno numbers, as sent to us by customers who made in the 340rwhp range, ... The information is not hidden! People know that Vitesse turbos cost more, that's not a secret. 99.9% of the customers do not know me personally, so the decision to purchase a Vitesse product has nothing to do with me personally. They purchase from Vitesse, because it's a proven product backed by excellent support THIS IS THE BEST MARKETING. So where is the "tactic", where is the "sale pitch"? The performance data is provided by the customers...
For those who want to prove that a GT or XYZ turbo performs better than VR or ABC turbos, you do it. You spend the time and money. Me as a vendor, all I have to do is to prove that my products perform as stated, that my customers are happy. I have done my homework, I know the results.
Each one of you with an agenda, do your own testing, prove you have a better product (asking a friend to give you specs on Vitesse turbos is not R&D), become a sponsor, support your own products. If you have something great, people will follow. Till then, leave Vitesse out of it. Become a better vendor with a better product, , and people will follow. Don't ask me to provide you with comparison data, do your own homework, your own testing and show the results.
GT turbos require motor mount modification or an adapter, they require exhaust mods as they have a different geometry, the oil feed must change.... You damage a GT turbo, the center cartridge is fairly expensive to replace...
Vitesse Turbos bolt up directly, no need to modify: the factory exhaust, motor mount, oil feed. I still say, for the 951, you will have a hard time finding a better performing turbo. Look at the big picture here. VR turbos bolt up with minimum mods, spool up nicely and perform great. Look at the whole package.
VR customers share with everyone what performance gains they were able to get. There is ST (a customer) who made 500+rwhp with a stock S3 turbo (other engine mods were needed). We also post the dyno numbers, as sent to us by customers who made in the 340rwhp range, ... The information is not hidden! People know that Vitesse turbos cost more, that's not a secret. 99.9% of the customers do not know me personally, so the decision to purchase a Vitesse product has nothing to do with me personally. They purchase from Vitesse, because it's a proven product backed by excellent support THIS IS THE BEST MARKETING. So where is the "tactic", where is the "sale pitch"? The performance data is provided by the customers...
For those who want to prove that a GT or XYZ turbo performs better than VR or ABC turbos, you do it. You spend the time and money. Me as a vendor, all I have to do is to prove that my products perform as stated, that my customers are happy. I have done my homework, I know the results.
Each one of you with an agenda, do your own testing, prove you have a better product (asking a friend to give you specs on Vitesse turbos is not R&D), become a sponsor, support your own products. If you have something great, people will follow. Till then, leave Vitesse out of it. Become a better vendor with a better product, , and people will follow. Don't ask me to provide you with comparison data, do your own homework, your own testing and show the results.
03-01-2007, 04:16 PM
#104
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Phoenix, AZ - NJ Runaway
Posts: 3,649
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Pauerman
It's great marketing isn't it!?! Got to be a salesman to sell stuff especially when the product has gotten decent reviews.
I don't think anyone here is doubting the advertised performance gain that is achieved with a Vitesse kit - there are obviously some satisfied customers.
From a Rennlist Member and 951 enthusiast's perspective, I share Porschefile's view on the importance of vendor honesty. It has appeared to me that many of the tactics and/or claims used to sell this stuff is questionable. Is it so wrong to point out some of these disputeable statements and question them? If there have been tests done to verify that a Garrett GT Series ball bearing turbo is inferior to a "worked" Vitesse turbo shouldn't that info be advertised especially when a Vitesse turbo costs more? There are just too many variables in turbo configurations to make such a broad statement. I'm sure the community wouldn't mind seeing an advertisement like "we've done back to back testing of various turbochargers and found that our Stg X turbo outperforms Garrett's GT30R or GT3071R or GT35R." Is this too much detail to ask for? How many people here are going to question and/or verify for themselves such a bold statement? With such a satisfied customer base, why would anyone want to right??
Believe it or not, there are still guys out there that want to know what they are buying for the sole purpose of learning, understanding and gauging for themselves the kind of increase they can expect from such a modification. It's called thinking for yourself - I don't know why it is so frowned upon in this forum. Just because some of these guys are questioning the mainstream doesn't mean that they're bashing anyone or looking for secrets. Does the fact that many if not all other performance car web forums talk openly about this stuff make you wonder why it is such a taboo topic over here? I'll take a stab in the dark and say that it may have something to do with the "P" word - profit $$$$$$
I think we all have to remember that this is information sharing forum based on furthering the performance of our beloved 951s. Why does the Vendor/Sponsor issue always have to get tied up in this goal? We want to share ideas of perfomance increases but more times than not, guys with an "out of the box" attitude are looked down upon cause they've got the ***** to question something when they see it.
Enough bickering!! Let's talk about things that will raise the performance level of our cars.
I don't think anyone here is doubting the advertised performance gain that is achieved with a Vitesse kit - there are obviously some satisfied customers.
From a Rennlist Member and 951 enthusiast's perspective, I share Porschefile's view on the importance of vendor honesty. It has appeared to me that many of the tactics and/or claims used to sell this stuff is questionable. Is it so wrong to point out some of these disputeable statements and question them? If there have been tests done to verify that a Garrett GT Series ball bearing turbo is inferior to a "worked" Vitesse turbo shouldn't that info be advertised especially when a Vitesse turbo costs more? There are just too many variables in turbo configurations to make such a broad statement. I'm sure the community wouldn't mind seeing an advertisement like "we've done back to back testing of various turbochargers and found that our Stg X turbo outperforms Garrett's GT30R or GT3071R or GT35R." Is this too much detail to ask for? How many people here are going to question and/or verify for themselves such a bold statement? With such a satisfied customer base, why would anyone want to right??
Believe it or not, there are still guys out there that want to know what they are buying for the sole purpose of learning, understanding and gauging for themselves the kind of increase they can expect from such a modification. It's called thinking for yourself - I don't know why it is so frowned upon in this forum. Just because some of these guys are questioning the mainstream doesn't mean that they're bashing anyone or looking for secrets. Does the fact that many if not all other performance car web forums talk openly about this stuff make you wonder why it is such a taboo topic over here? I'll take a stab in the dark and say that it may have something to do with the "P" word - profit $$$$$$
I think we all have to remember that this is information sharing forum based on furthering the performance of our beloved 951s. Why does the Vendor/Sponsor issue always have to get tied up in this goal? We want to share ideas of perfomance increases but more times than not, guys with an "out of the box" attitude are looked down upon cause they've got the ***** to question something when they see it.
Enough bickering!! Let's talk about things that will raise the performance level of our cars.
I can't speak for anyone's tactics or honesty, however, my personal experience with the particular product in question has been great and I have never been lied to, mistreated, or misguided. You may not be impressed with John’s stuff for whatever reasons (mainly because you believe you can do it better yourself). I am not however “gassed up” by anyone and new/better products do come along every day in this world. I think the issue here is the touting of the BB turbo's on everyone else's dime (not you). There’s nothing wrong with anyone trying the BB turbo’s either but someone at least needs to give a first hand account of its use on the application. I personally don’t believe John has to give an apples to apples comparison here because his stuff works, his customers are satisfied, and he has customers and dyno charts to prove it. No one else has been able to give anything except theories based off of compressor maps on the performance of the BB on a 951. I used nitrous systems on system on my mustang for years with varying grades and jets and it was outstanding. I also believe the 951 can handle a 200 shot at low boost levels. Not in a million years would I profess to be a N20 expert or recommend a kit/jet configuration for a 951 that I haven’t tried myself.
Porschefile is on the board touting all of his experience and opinions; however he hasn’t done a damn thing on a Porsche or any other car as far as I’m concerned so his credibility is less then my wife’s. He’s got a 951 that is stock as far as I’m concerned and a 930 that someone else built. Has any other rennlister besides Drifto met him or seen his cars in person? Anyone spend an afternoon turning a wrench with him? Should I worry about drifto coming after me now? I thought the C5 vert crowd was juvenile but this is getting ridiculous over here. The BB turbo's may be great……… however, for me I'm not sure (and it hasn't been proven) that the gains to be had in efficiency and spool-up, are worth the effort as it relates to fitment. I think the argument her is overall the opposite. The Vitesse turbo packages, fairy dust or not, have been proven to be rock solid performers and a good match-up for individual’s goals. Personally if there was a BB turbo that will give me 15psi @ 2800 RPM's and the ability to run up to 25 psi efficiently, bolt-on without modifications (other then the water pipe), and had a properly matched chip/MAF, I'd be interested in it if the price and performance was equivalent to the Vitesse products.
Vic, you love the BB turbos. Good for you! Do you have the sack to actually try one out on your own car and report the results? It sure seems like you do/are and I look forward to seeing them and hearing about the results. Want to do a real world comparison between a VS2 and an equivalent BB? I have a car that we can abuse (within reason) and do a true apples to apples comparison. Same dyno, same car, same conditions and not a word get’s said about it until we’re done. It’ll be fun if you ask me and put a lot of this **** to bed. We can set up a few agreements and parameters based upon what John claims about his turbo’s (that’s what were really after here is to validate Johns claims right?) which is early boost and total power under the curve being the goal and we can measure it in 100 rpm increments from 2900 RPM’s to 6500. While there are likely too many considerations (spool/tq/hp/drivability) to determine a “clear winner” it will give people an opportunity to judge for themselves. If P-file is so concerned about the “development” out or board and engines, maybe he (or any other one who is so concerned with raising the performance levels of our cars) can send Vic some cash to help off set the cost of one of these test turbos. Something tells me that Vic won’t get many donations from the self proclaimed development apostles. Let’s leave the personal **** (I love John, I love Tim, I love John D) out of it and test them.
You and I both have experience with some older GT kits (however mismatched) and I wasn't impressed at all (IIRC neither were you). Maybe a properly matched one would be better then what I have experienced in the past and the only judgement I can or will make is what I have seen with my own eyes or felt under my *** (okay that didn’t sound too good) and I thought you were the same way.
03-01-2007, 04:18 PM
#105
I will be posting my Vitesse turbo dyno as soon as my clutch gets here, so by the end of next week I should have it. This will be a base dyno, with no tuning yet whatsoever. I will list all mods also.