Fishey

Turbo specs will tell you how the turbo will perform on the 951. Its called doing calculations to come to an answer. A turbo map is very helpful for finding the best turbo for an application. So, yes I think its something that is far more helpful then a few people coming and telling me what its done for them on there setup.

just my $.02

ehall

and no 951 to boot....

SoloRacer

What you are missing is that anyone can spec out their own turbo. That information is not a secret and no big deal to find. What you pay a vendor like John for is his knowledge on turbo's to spec out and try them on your particular car. What you are saying is sufficient would be like me going to HKS and saying "I need a turbo for my car" and they throw all the specs at me that are on the turbonetics site to choose from with no proof that any of them will give me what I want out of my car. Basically what you are saying is you would rather buy a turbo with known specs but unknown results on a 951 than a turbo that you know without a doubt how it will perform on your car - power band, spool, etc. Any joker can go into the parts bin and pick a bunch of parts that they think will be a good match for the car. But it's the results that matter - not the specifications. That is what most of us pay for when we buy a proven kit.

SoloRacer

Here's a question for Fishey, Pauerman and Porschefile:

Let's say John decided to tell the world what the exact specifications and possible work had been done to his turbos. What difference would that make to anything we discussed here? Are his turbo's going to suddenly make less or more power than they already did? Are the results going to change? Other than giving you guys a cheap way to clone what he has put together what possibly could be gained from it? Sure you could say "well those turbo specs shouldn't do what this turbo can" and that is about it. But you have no proof that on our cars another turbo is better - it's all conjecture and remains that way until you finally give us some hard results to compare with. You basically want him to throw away his business for the sake of saving people a few bucks - for the "benefit of the community" as you like to make it sound. I don't blame John one bit for not sharing that info. Here are two scenarios for you:

1) John doesn't tell us the specs - you say there is a better choice and then have to prove it by giving us results.

2) John tells us the specs - you say there is a better choice and then have to prove it by giving us results.

Nothing changes other than it's been made easier to clone his work. Rather than try to figure out what he has done you should concentrate your efforts on putting together something better out there and then proving it like he has. Discussions about specifications and compressor maps are a waste of time if you don't actually test them out and then compare. Results are what counts. The only possible reason you want to know what he does is because you want to copy it to do it cheaper.

ehall

^^^^^^^^^^^^^YEP!

Tms951

I think threads like this are good so that people can get some different perspective when doing research on a turbo.

I have never been a fan of secrecy, and it will and has prevented me from purchasing things in the past. I have purchased things before because of the overwhelming amount of technical information supplied by professionals and not end users who could be lying or unable to describe the way and environment it was done in. I also question a vender that uses some thing like an internet forum as there main source for a customer base, or that has such a small product range that more so is targeted at a niche market than a larger market like overall owners of a make or model of car.

I question a product that is not backed by technical info and what technical info there is meant to be is not released. I feel when some one releases technical info on a product they are confident that it is so cutting edge it can not be easily replicated and when they hide it is because it is actuality not that special and can be easily replicated or purchased elsewhere for less money.

None of this is directed at specific vendors but as a general statement about product vendors and end users.

I also like to have members like Porschfile, Pauerman and even Drifto (though it seems he has been run out town for not conforming to the community) on this forum and giving their opinions.

Tms951

I also forgot to add that I don't think that presently humans are capable of defying or creating some thing that defies physics, and turbos are based on physics.

fast951

Tms951, may I ask you a question?

When your Wolf 3D standalone did not work well and you came to me for a MAF. Did I give you any details as to what the MAF sensor is? NO, did I share information with you on the ignition timing I use? NO. Did you purchase a good working solution from me? Yes.
Let's see, you knew no technical information about my product, yet you purchased it. And it worked for you.
I see a contradiction here!

I'll say it once more. If you are into figuring out turbos, into experimenting, you don't mind changing 1,2,3 or 10 turbos, by all means DO IT.
If you want detailed specs so you can distribute it on the internet to be a hero for a moment, then Vitesse is not your vendor.

How many of you actually own a business. Let's assume you find a great deal on a product, would you email your competitor with your supplier's contact info?

JonH

Alright John, I've read this entire thread and all it's done is make me start getting really impatient for that Stg.2 I just bought!
J/K - Garage is still a balmy 40 deg.

Tms951

Well, you did not give me info on the MAF because I gave it to you, I used a Lindsey Racing MAF kit because I knew what I was getting it was a ProM MAF and came with a printed out data sheet of voltages and flow. With this information that another vendor supplied you were able to write me a chip that my car ran with.

When I bought the chip from you I knew what I was getting that was the only custom chip that I could get my car started with, which it did. But do to the lack of info I got about the chip it was hard to get it running decently, in the end I was able to crank up the fuel pressure to get it to run a safe A/F under boost but this left it extremely rich off boost. The car also did not make great power but I was able to run the car on the track with out any catastrophic engine failure. But once I got the car broken in I got rid off the chip because I felt there better options than trying to get this chip figured out through email correspondence.

The support you offer being email based was not the type of support I was looking for, I am the type the likes to talk on the phone, not email. I gave you my phone number and you did not call me and continued to email me and did not supply me with your phone number. I took this as a clear indication that you do not like to deal with customers on the phone. I have given Lindsey racing and Scott Gomes (UPP) so much of my business because of their willingness to talk to on the phone for sometimes hours at a time to help with my car and many times on things that did not involve their products, now that’s what I call great customer support.

edit: as to the wolf, I never installed it so to say that i doesn't work would be wrong. The suplier that sold it to me gave it to me very early on and I was going to help them test it, They then contacted me (by Phone) and told me that in thier testing there was one thing they did not like and offered to take back the wolf while they worked with the manufacturer to change it. I have then been informed by some one using it that it now works very well and he is very happy with it.

anders44

the 728 is M30B28, same engine series as in E34, m5 has S38B36 and S38B38

all engines are very popular for tuning here, then pushing into E30's as the engines actually are quite light.

you get forged internal, mls gaskets etc easy.


stop with the attacks on each other, I would want a technical thread as topic suggest, not a forum deathmatch.

I will say it again a bolton solution is perfect for 95%! putting in GT30R and even GT35R requires loads of mods, I'm only doing it because I purchased a car that needs a total overhaul anyway, so not much more work since exhaust, wg and misc headers would need to be redone anyway. has anyone tested 0.63 vs 0.82 on GT30R on a 2.5?

Duke

I never entered this thread because it was so sadly predictable where it was headed by just looking at the topic...

There are some mixed up things in this thread. First, why can't just people accept that John doesn't want to share his information about the turbo's? If you don't understand why he keeps the specs to himself you're obviously lacking fundamental business common sense.

Comparisons are always interesting, but that's a totally different point! When detailed comparisons of Vitesse vs Garrett GTBB turbos are available I'll be the first inline to take part of those. Mostly because I'm an engine 'nerd' as many other people on this forum, and really like to see the differances.

Actually I sell Garrett GTBB turbos. Generally speaking I don't think it is possible to find a better turbo, but a turbo that's perfect for one configuration doesn't mean it's perfect for another.
And that's the whole key to this matter.
Vitesse doesn't sell "a turbo", Vitesse sell "a concept". A concept to meet certain requirements, such as power levels, spool up etc.

Try calling up RUF or (even Evolution Motorsports for that matter) and asking about compressor maps for their tuning kits.... See what I'm getting at?

Not that many GTBB'ed 951's out there with datalogs but Markus had some very interesting logs on his last 2.5. Also Edman had some logs on his GT30. How come there is 8 pages of crap here and NOONE even bothered with the search to get those and make some useful posts.

Sadly, the missing little red text under my username has it's reasons.

anders44

thanks for the tip on edmans thread, I had only seen the videos of the car online before but had little techspec on it. the thread was so old and ranked so long back on the search I had trouble finding it.

fast951

You are correct about the MAF sensor, my bad. Before you purchased, you were fully aware that you needed a PiggyBack in addition to the software.
Nothing personal about the phone calls, at times I have 4-5 projects going at once. Taking phone calls is very distracting. I talk to many of my customers, I'm sorry we never did talk on the phone it was not intentional.

It's interesting that now, my software did not work for you! Interesting how it works with everyone else. If you made me aware of the issues you had, I would have taken care of it as much as possible. I hope you are not upset that I was not able to give you a discount.

Tms951

Before I responded I went back and read our 35 page email correspondence based on the chip, in which you told me I would need the piggy back because of the cam I had. When I asked you why you clearly stated I would need it to get a "clean idle", there was no mention of other rpm and loads. Idle and WOT was the times the car ran the best.

It is not that the software does not work "now". It has always worked the same and it always worked. It just did not work as well as I thought a chip that cost 895$ should have. I am not unhappy that you did not give me a discount, I do however think that a retail price of 895$ is very high for what I got. The fact that every one else’s software works still does not effect the fact that mine while able to run the car was sub par.

I did not continue to contact you with my problems because the ones I had asked you questions about I did not get great responses too. I basically got the feeling you only wanted give me support if I bought the piggy back, at which point I would not have needed your support because I could have fixed it all my self with the piggy back, the thing was I did not want to use a piggy back of any type. I come from a sector of the car industry that sells chips for cars that you install and it runs great does not use a piggy and only cost 395$, this is from a company considered an industry leader, these cars also use bosch motronic system.

So basically I got to point where I just walked away from a situation because I was sick of dealing with it.