Knock counting, What's good
08-04-2009, 07:34 AM
#211
Rennlist Member
Sort of OT, and I think I've asked this before, but what's the deal with my AFR gauge reading all over the place and then often nothing? When I cold start it in the morning it starts at 14s and then just climbs up until it reads ... off the scale. When It's warm it fluctuates a lot and really hard to get consistent reads from it at the moment. This is possibly after running E85 for a while, but now even if I go back to pump it does a similar thing. If the sensor was broken, would it read anything at all?
08-04-2009, 06:36 PM
#213
Rennlist Member
Yeah I remember you saying that Sid, but I would have thought it would either work or not? Anyway, I can try another one.
08-04-2009, 07:25 PM
#214
Burning Brakes
Sensors can do all sorts of strange things when they go bad, including eratic readings. My last one was reading rich when it went bad which is not really good news!
08-04-2009, 11:52 PM
#217
Formula One Spin Doctor
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Sort of OT, and I think I've asked this before, but what's the deal with my AFR gauge reading all over the place and then often nothing? When I cold start it in the morning it starts at 14s and then just climbs up until it reads ... off the scale. When It's warm it fluctuates a lot
01-09-2011, 12:06 AM
#218
just wanted to say that i stumbled across this thread a couple of weeks back, and read the entire thing, front to back, twice.
i bought the 'wrong' counter -- it won't reset. but i'll see if i can the resistor trick to work, and if not, it's a (probably the only) cheap mistake ($30 for reset).
because i don't want this to turn in to another "beercansoldering projectgotreallybig" moment, i'm thinking of shelling out the cash for the knocksense unit -- if you don't have a piggyback or other ECU solution, for around $100 (plus any other expenditures - making it pretty), i think you're getting a steal.
this is a very, very important insight in to the car's engine. the only way they'll last is with careful tuning. which we do ourselves sometimes. leading to knock.
anyways, i would like to thank you guys for having this discussion. everyone stuck with it long enough to not only solve a real problem, but also come up and document the process with lots of knowledge, neat solutions and elegant implementations.
i walked away with the knowledge of how to implement a solution and not have it be a 'black box'. most excellent. now it's time to pester my mech-e friend and see if i cant pull a 'friendship favor' and get him to machine me a case.
any updates? you guys still finding the data useful, any new developments, etc?
i bought the 'wrong' counter -- it won't reset. but i'll see if i can the resistor trick to work, and if not, it's a (probably the only) cheap mistake ($30 for reset).
because i don't want this to turn in to another "beercansoldering projectgotreallybig" moment, i'm thinking of shelling out the cash for the knocksense unit -- if you don't have a piggyback or other ECU solution, for around $100 (plus any other expenditures - making it pretty), i think you're getting a steal.
this is a very, very important insight in to the car's engine. the only way they'll last is with careful tuning. which we do ourselves sometimes. leading to knock.
anyways, i would like to thank you guys for having this discussion. everyone stuck with it long enough to not only solve a real problem, but also come up and document the process with lots of knowledge, neat solutions and elegant implementations.
i walked away with the knowledge of how to implement a solution and not have it be a 'black box'. most excellent. now it's time to pester my mech-e friend and see if i cant pull a 'friendship favor' and get him to machine me a case.
any updates? you guys still finding the data useful, any new developments, etc?
01-09-2011, 01:15 AM
#219
Nordschleife Master
just wanted to say that i stumbled across this thread a couple of weeks back, and read the entire thing, front to back, twice.
i bought the 'wrong' counter -- it won't reset. but i'll see if i can the resistor trick to work, and if not, it's a (probably the only) cheap mistake ($30 for reset).
because i don't want this to turn in to another "beercansoldering projectgotreallybig" moment, i'm thinking of shelling out the cash for the knocksense unit -- if you don't have a piggyback or other ECU solution, for around $100 (plus any other expenditures - making it pretty), i think you're getting a steal.
this is a very, very important insight in to the car's engine. the only way they'll last is with careful tuning. which we do ourselves sometimes. leading to knock.
anyways, i would like to thank you guys for having this discussion. everyone stuck with it long enough to not only solve a real problem, but also come up and document the process with lots of knowledge, neat solutions and elegant implementations.
i walked away with the knowledge of how to implement a solution and not have it be a 'black box'. most excellent. now it's time to pester my mech-e friend and see if i cant pull a 'friendship favor' and get him to machine me a case.
any updates? you guys still finding the data useful, any new developments, etc?
i bought the 'wrong' counter -- it won't reset. but i'll see if i can the resistor trick to work, and if not, it's a (probably the only) cheap mistake ($30 for reset).
because i don't want this to turn in to another "beercansoldering projectgotreallybig" moment, i'm thinking of shelling out the cash for the knocksense unit -- if you don't have a piggyback or other ECU solution, for around $100 (plus any other expenditures - making it pretty), i think you're getting a steal.
this is a very, very important insight in to the car's engine. the only way they'll last is with careful tuning. which we do ourselves sometimes. leading to knock.
anyways, i would like to thank you guys for having this discussion. everyone stuck with it long enough to not only solve a real problem, but also come up and document the process with lots of knowledge, neat solutions and elegant implementations.
i walked away with the knowledge of how to implement a solution and not have it be a 'black box'. most excellent. now it's time to pester my mech-e friend and see if i cant pull a 'friendship favor' and get him to machine me a case.
any updates? you guys still finding the data useful, any new developments, etc?
For knock sensing the stock KLR does a reasonably good job, and is integrated pretty well.. for 20 some years ago..
As for reset, it isn't hard to add, but does become a little "beer can soldering" when the housing has to be glued back together after all is said and done..
Knowing when and if you are knocking is important data not only during tuning, but also during operation as it will often alert you BEFORE things get too bad to stop.. but then there is the occasion to discover things all of the sudden went bad.. and then having the data to review is helpful to try to prevent future sudden events..
01-09-2011, 01:45 AM
#220
SEMS, J&S Safeguard.. done.
For knock sensing the stock KLR does a reasonably good job, and is integrated pretty well.. for 20 some years ago..
As for reset, it isn't hard to add, but does become a little "beer can soldering" when the housing has to be glued back together after all is said and done..
Knowing when and if you are knocking is important data not only during tuning, but also during operation as it will often alert you BEFORE things get too bad to stop.. but then there is the occasion to discover things all of the sudden went bad.. and then having the data to review is helpful to try to prevent future sudden events..
For knock sensing the stock KLR does a reasonably good job, and is integrated pretty well.. for 20 some years ago..
As for reset, it isn't hard to add, but does become a little "beer can soldering" when the housing has to be glued back together after all is said and done..
Knowing when and if you are knocking is important data not only during tuning, but also during operation as it will often alert you BEFORE things get too bad to stop.. but then there is the occasion to discover things all of the sudden went bad.. and then having the data to review is helpful to try to prevent future sudden events..
as for knowing about knock -- after all the homework i've been doing on these cars, this one stood out as rather important and oft-unnoticed. since i'm starting from scratch w/engine tuning, the more data the better. i can figure it all out later, but having it there is important.
01-10-2011, 10:47 AM
#221
Drive-by provocation guy
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because i don't want this to turn in to another "beercansoldering projectgotreallybig" moment, i'm thinking of shelling out the cash for the knocksense unit -- if you don't have a piggyback or other ECU solution, for around $100 (plus any other expenditures - making it pretty), i think you're getting a steal.
The Knocksense is interesting in that it shows intenstity of knock. But if tying into the pin 15 0-5v i assume 1 v would be low LED and 5v would be intense knock??
Also, you mention for $30 you can get a resettable knock counter? From where?
01-10-2011, 10:52 AM
#222
Nordschleife Master
http://www.viatrack.ca/
The Knocksense is interesting in that it shows intenstity of knock. But if tying into the pin 15 0-5v i assume 1 v would be low LED and 5v would be intense knock??
Also, you mention for $30 you can get a resettable knock counter? From where?
The Knocksense is interesting in that it shows intenstity of knock. But if tying into the pin 15 0-5v i assume 1 v would be low LED and 5v would be intense knock??
Also, you mention for $30 you can get a resettable knock counter? From where?
as far as variable output from Pin 15, I wouldn't count on it.. IIRC it is around 1.5VDC very short duration... most data loggers will not catch every one because of the durration of the signal vs the sampling rate or the logger... but then this has all been discussed here ad nauseum..
The J&S is around $700 IIRC, will handle single or multi sensor and chanell, DOES display and output variable intensity for intensity of knock, and is VERY easy to install, setup, and understand! it is overkill for a street car, but if expecting the best, build it using the best...
not selling, just telling... and yes I have one sitting for my use on my 951...
01-10-2011, 11:02 AM
#223
Nordschleife Master
i hear ya. i'm taking the more DIY route as i've spent enough on the car already that i cannot justify that expense on the ECU. we'll cross that road later. $100 is more comfortable for me right now, and i'm not worried about putting it all together.
as for knowing about knock -- after all the homework i've been doing on these cars, this one stood out as rather important and oft-unnoticed. since i'm starting from scratch w/engine tuning, the more data the better. i can figure it all out later, but having it there is important.
as for knowing about knock -- after all the homework i've been doing on these cars, this one stood out as rather important and oft-unnoticed. since i'm starting from scratch w/engine tuning, the more data the better. i can figure it all out later, but having it there is important.
IMHO EMS and Knock monitoring / controll if tuning your car to the edge is NOT the place to cut corners or DIY..
using the factory DME and KLR is a good thing, unless you want to push beyond the limit of the 25YO technology.. which is still pretty good by todays standards..
there are a few guys taking an approach to update the DME/KLR.. good on them, but then that is how Meggasquirt got started... but I digress..
DIY, post results, and post over time.. I know rogue did it himself, and ran it till it blew up, and is now rebuilding it.. I am using a totally different route, TONS of my own twists, and am building it to ONLY have to do it once...
01-10-2011, 09:10 PM
#224
Burning Brakes
Hey John,
I'm pretty sure I bought a resettable counter from you about a year ago. I absolutely love it! I re-set it before each run session so I can manually log the info for different tracks, weather, fuel, boost etc.
I particularly used the info when recently testing Torco fuel enhancer v.s. race fuel. I found that paying $13.00 a gallon for 109 octane yielded no better results than what I received from the Torco product ($20 treats 10 gallons of 91 octane).
15 PSI - Hot days would yield 170 to 230 counts per 20 minute run session using both types of fuel. Cool days would see 70 to 130.
Agreed - this was a great thread!
I'm pretty sure I bought a resettable counter from you about a year ago. I absolutely love it! I re-set it before each run session so I can manually log the info for different tracks, weather, fuel, boost etc.
I particularly used the info when recently testing Torco fuel enhancer v.s. race fuel. I found that paying $13.00 a gallon for 109 octane yielded no better results than what I received from the Torco product ($20 treats 10 gallons of 91 octane).
15 PSI - Hot days would yield 170 to 230 counts per 20 minute run session using both types of fuel. Cool days would see 70 to 130.
Agreed - this was a great thread!
01-10-2011, 10:07 PM
#225
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Yes, my last engine died - BUT that was an NA engine that I turboed. I knew when I installed it that it would have a finite life. The NA internals simply are not strong enough to survive 350rwhp.
I've since built and installed a 2.5L, back to using turbo internals, and I have around 4000miles already on it - I do expect this motor to live for a long time at ~400rwhp.
That said, the SafeGuard by J&S is a great unit - I've personally ran it (not on a 951), and it does what it claims. However, the KLR is also a good unit - and it was designed specifically to detect knock on our cars. In fact, the KLR is what John @ J&S used as a model to build the SafeGuards.
I still use the KLR pin #15 for knock monitoring, and I tune for <3 counts per gear. As you can see in my thread here showing the NA internals from the deceased engine, there was no signs of knock at all - and this NA engine lived as a DD for ~9months on 18psi of boost.
The DME/KLR hardware is not a bad piece. Rather, the software is what needs updating...