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Black balancer is correct for a GT, though it is on backwards. Should be 'readable' as viewed from the front of the car.
Do you have some sort of cap/cover/plug over your dipstick tube opening? You should.
Those cam gears look pretty terrible, smart move to change them sooner rather than later.
Forgetting the cams for a sec, with the crank at 0|T as in your pictures from 7:32, you're either at TDC on cylinder #1 or TDC for cylinder #6. The surest way to see which you're at is to pull the sparkplug on #1 and see if the piston is at TDC (it'll look like the piston crown is about ~1 cm below the plug hole).
Your set of pics from 7:59 with the cam gears on their marks and the crank gear 180 degrees out means that the cams are 'expecting' TDC#1 while the crank is either 180 degrees past TDC1 or TDC6.
I would start by hand-turning the motor so the damper's at 0|T, and check if you're at TDC1. If so, then turn the crank over 675 degrees (so you're at 45 crank degrees before TDC1, at which point you can spin the cams so they're 3 teeth before the marks, and re-string the cam belt.
If you haven't loosened the crank bolt, now would be a good time, and flip the balancer so there's no confusion about the marks for 45o BTDC.
I don't know whether the engine will run with the timing the way it's set right now, apparently it can. Hopefully you haven't damaged any valves!
From the rotor orientation (3:00 on the clock face) the cams think the engine is at #1 TDC. I would lock the engine in that position and remove the crank bolt and flip the damper over, before doing anything else-- find out where the crankshaft actually is. My recollection is that a reversed damper puts things 90 crank-deg out, not 180.
Before de-stringing the belt I would want the crank at 45 BTDC per the (correctly-installed) balancer, which puts the pistons halfway down. The v-marks on the cam gears will then (hopefully) be 3 belt-teeth to the left of of the notches in the back cover, rotors pointing roughly at 3 o'clock. In any event with the crank at 45 BTDC you can spin the cams with wild abandon.
Thanks to both of you. It was getting late and I decided to post and think on it (50 this year and finally some wisdom) before making any decisions. I'll lock the flywheel, pull the bolt, and flip the damper tomorrow evening if I have the time and inclination after a Monday.
I'll verify that #1 is actually at TDC when crankshaft marker says so.
Just for my sanity, the cam gears allow only a couple of degrees of rotation and CANNOT be installed backwards, spun by some random amount, or on the "wrong" cam? My plan was to set 3:00 on the gears, assuming that to be a safe, non-interference setting, then rotate the crank through to 45 degrees.
I think that is what you guys are saying but if I have it wrong, please save me from myself!
Edit: If the woodruf key is at 90 degrees to the TDC mark, flipping the pulley will put the numbers on the opposite side of the clock face. Hopefully this is what happened here.
Just for my sanity, the cam gears allow only a couple of degrees of rotation and CANNOT be installed backwards, spun by some random amount, or on the "wrong" cam?
Correct.
Originally Posted by mskar
My plan was to set 3:00 on the gears, assuming that to be a safe, non-interference setting, then rotate the crank through to 45 degrees.
Not correct. If the crank is set to 45 BTDC then the pistons are all on the mid-stroke position (heading up or down) and it is safe to rotate the cams. However the converse is not true: There is no cam position that will allow the crank to be rotated (without the timing belt) without risking a piston-valve collision. One or more valves will always be partially open no matter what the cam position.
So the safe thing is to freeze the crank in place with a flywheel lock, flip the damper over so you can find out where the crank really is, and then make a plan from there. And your gears are already at 3 o'clock. So hopefully the crank is 45 BTDC or thereabouts and the only foobar was putting the damper on backwards.
I suspect some comedian put the damper on backwards during a water pump change out. If this happeans the indicated crank angle will [I think] be 180 degree out. I assume the crank was at TDC when the photo was taken, looking at the damper photo to me this looks consistent with being 180 degrees out.
Flipping the damper is straighforward- this can be achieved without removing the cambelt or disturbing anything critical. In your situation I would rotate the crank until it is at approximately 45 degrees BTDC- calculate the circumference, measure half of that around the damper and chalk a mark at that point to give you a target position. Then you can lock the crank at that position and flip the damper over. If the indicator is spot on you can get on with the timing belt job from that postion. If the indicator is slightly away from 45 BTDC you can undo the lock and rotate the crank to the exact position now correctly indicated.
So the safe thing is to freeze the crank in place with a flywheel lock, flip the damper over so you can find out where the crank really is, and then make a plan from there. And your gears are already at 3 o'clock. So hopefully the crank is 45 BTDC or thereabouts and the only foobar was putting the damper on backwards.
Yes this - except that the dist rotors and alignment marks for TDC are in the right place for TDC #1 (if you look at the outside of the (currently removed) cam belt covers, there are marks the dist rotors will be pointing at currently.
Leave it where it is (TDC on cams), use flywheel lock to lock the engine, and swap the balancer round - no need to remove the belt to do so, so its safe. If the balancer is stuck, just persist in wiggling at 90 degree intervals.. even if it feels like its not moving, it will eventually walk off, as the rubber makes it hard to feel movement. Some penetrating oil around the front edge where it sits on the crank will help a little.
Once you've got it back on and turned by hand to a confirmed 45 degrees, then its degreaser party time! Might want to hold off the care pack from Roger until title is sorted tho'. Oh - before you start buying individual seals for bits of the intake, belt job etc.. just buy a complete gasket set and be done with it Much cheaper and it means you'll have the seals to hand whenever you need them (might need to buy a pair of extra water bridge seals tho' - some later cars had 2 extra gaskets between the coolant bridge o-rings and the sealing surface).
In the meantime, drain the coolant out of the block.
Fred - That same comedian was likely the idiot who used vice grips on the pulley stack
Hilton - exactly my plan, except the part about saving money by just planning ahead and buying a complete gasket set (oops). I'm approaching the Title situation with a "If you (re)build it they will come" attitude. The packet I sent off to NYS could not have been more airtight and straightforward, any reasonable human being would understand it. I mean, obviously they'll still deny the application, it is NY, but that gives me the "tried everything else" I need for the Virginia DMV "Affidavit in Lieu of Title" process.
Sweet, just picked up a used replacement oil cooler in nice condition for $125 shipped. Was really figuring that one was going to be heavily Porsche taxed.
Anyone have a good used pulley stack for a '91? All of the ones on ebay have damage similar to mine.
I love threads like this! Wow! What a story. I still can't comprehend why anyone would buy such an expensive car like this and let it rot away. People are weird sometimes...
Hope you're able to bring this beast to its former glory again and hopefully the hard part of getting the title is behind you. Good luck to you!
Well, it's all just one big downhill coast from here...
I HAVE A KEY!
Roger ordered me a key by VIN, it came in less than 2 weeks and turns both the ignition cylinder and hatch cylinder (both of which are sitting on my kitchen table).
As I previously mentioned, my ignition cylinder had a code stamped on its body, I used this code to order another key from keys4classics around the same time. The keys4classics guy said he had never seen a code stamped on the body but said the number of digits was correct. If that key works as well, we'll have an answer as to whether Porsche engraved later cars' ignition cylinders.
Seriously, the planets aligned this evening, I should have stayed at the shop longer. Went over (20 minutes from my house) to put my ignition cylinder back in and pickup my cluster so I could do the LED upgrade at home some evening this week. Pod is loose but figuring on complications, figured 30 minutes. Nope, less than 5. Decided to put my ignition cylinder back in, figured 20 minutes for fiddling with that little pin and lining up the cylinder. Again, 5 minutes and it was in. 20 for putting the hatch lock back in, yep almost exactly.
Ok, wasn't planning on getting dirty but maybe I'll give that crank bolt a try and flip that balancer. grabbed my flywheel lock and headed under. Oooh, so THAT's where the clutch slave is, damn, no simply removing a cover like on the A/T, this could get messy and that hard-line looks kind of crusty. 5 minutes, all the hydraulic fluid magically went INTO my container, flywheel lock in.
Now for the crank pully bolt. Grabbed my 3/4" breaker, socket, and 2 foot pipe. ****, almost pulled my back last time. Surprise, PO's mechanic (I'll just call him "comedian" since Fred basically nailed it) put the bolt back on to maybe 80ft/lbs. Pulleys, meh, not so bad to wiggle off. Examined the pulleys where the PO's comedian used vice grips or channel locks on them: not horrible and the damage is confined to the outer lip of the smog-pump pulley. Not putting that thing back on so done.
Looked at the woodruff key, YES, 90 degrees off the 0/T mark. Pulled it, flipped it and now with the cam notches aligned with their cover-marks, the crank is very close, but not 0/T.
right
left
5 degrees off
At this point, I could use some expert BTDT advice. Should I rotate the crank 360 + 315 to the 45 mark, lock the flywheel, do my WP, tensioner, oil pump, crank seal, then rotate the cams to 3:00 (9:00?), install the new belt and check at zero again?
This car could NOT have been running very well when it was last on the road. How many degrees would the belt have to be off to damage the engine?
01-29-2017, 09:39 PM
