Gain 100HP with an intake manifold change?? - Cross post from Ferrari Chat
03-17-2016, 04:56 PM
#227
Rennlist Member
I don't normally agree with Imre, but I agree with him in this instance:
[SIZ]Put your money where your mouth is.[/SIZE]
Commission an intake to the specs YOU want. Put your money on the line for a change. Glen has given you a great lead on a engineering/prototype/designer/fabricator. Greg Brown cannot and will never be bullied/cajoled/sweet-talked into ever providing products to fuel your ego, so get over it and go elsewhere.
Fund your own 100 HP intake and laugh all the way to a 1st place at the finish line or whatever your goal is.
[SIZ"]Just Do It[/SIZE]
[SIZ]Put your money where your mouth is.[/SIZE]
Commission an intake to the specs YOU want. Put your money on the line for a change. Glen has given you a great lead on a engineering/prototype/designer/fabricator. Greg Brown cannot and will never be bullied/cajoled/sweet-talked into ever providing products to fuel your ego, so get over it and go elsewhere.
Fund your own 100 HP intake and laugh all the way to a 1st place at the finish line or whatever your goal is.
[SIZ"]Just Do It[/SIZE]
thats why im DISCUSSING the possiblity of merging carls technology to what is already available. Glen's link is encuraging! that shows some pretty cool intake plennums.
I could care less about Greg Brown and his nonsense.
you talk about goals in the 928? what do you think they might be for anyone in the racing community? its a cheater car in most cases, and now that POC , PCA have HP to weight classes, you really dont even need all the HP that you once needed to be competitive. better in SCCA or NASA where at least you are competing against cars in the same weight class.
the only competition im in right now, is showing the 928 can survive racing in its near stock form. (now, sans the new bottom end)
My racing competition is a blast and its fine the way it is.. lots of people to race and be competitive with. however it would be nice to get to the HP levels of the competitors i used to dice with, that have since bolted on 50 to 100 more HP, and thats where the intake comes in. If i can find something near plug and play, ill buy it and bolt it in.
oh, and dont agree with Imor or whatever his call sign is..he is just a blow hard
03-17-2016, 06:28 PM
#229
Rennlist Member
probably the best bet.. he is a great fabricator. i think the idea is sound im sure he can figure it out. Im betting it can work. its not like something like this has not been done before. seriously, i think the 928 is the only car that doesnt have an aftermarket intake available for it.
03-17-2016, 07:01 PM
#231
Rennlist Member
http://www.mustangandfords.com/featu...return-of-5-0/
Just look at what the mustang BOSS did to the power with an intake and slightly bigger valves and some head work. still a tame production car, that passes smog obviously, but the point is. they changed the long runner intake tube for this Aston Martin V8 style intake plennum and are pushing 450hp flywheel in stock form.
they can easily get this to the rear wheels with some minor tweaks.
Now, this is a 5 liter same as the 928 S4.. cams are a little more radical , with 12mm lift vs even the GT 10mm. but again, this is a stock engine. its rated at the flywheel 100 hp more than the GT. i dont know what the cam makes, because its a simlar cam to the coyote engine cam and both have 11:1 compression. the biggest change is head work and this new intake. valve size is 37mm intake. and bore and stroke is like a stroker crank 92mm, but a small bore diameter, 92mm. close to the v8 vantage demensions. it looks like our 100mm bore has advantages in that it uses a much shorter stroke.
encouraging to see that so much can be made from an intake
Just look at what the mustang BOSS did to the power with an intake and slightly bigger valves and some head work. still a tame production car, that passes smog obviously, but the point is. they changed the long runner intake tube for this Aston Martin V8 style intake plennum and are pushing 450hp flywheel in stock form.
they can easily get this to the rear wheels with some minor tweaks.
Now, this is a 5 liter same as the 928 S4.. cams are a little more radical , with 12mm lift vs even the GT 10mm. but again, this is a stock engine. its rated at the flywheel 100 hp more than the GT. i dont know what the cam makes, because its a simlar cam to the coyote engine cam and both have 11:1 compression. the biggest change is head work and this new intake. valve size is 37mm intake. and bore and stroke is like a stroker crank 92mm, but a small bore diameter, 92mm. close to the v8 vantage demensions. it looks like our 100mm bore has advantages in that it uses a much shorter stroke.
encouraging to see that so much can be made from an intake
03-17-2016, 07:08 PM
#232
Rennlist Member
thats obvious, right? no one cares about the little power of the 944na, because thats the turbo domintated world. (there is no stock turbo 928), and the 911s? they were designed right. with near 500hp coming out of the N/A 3.8 liter with small tweaks! I think the intake is better on the racing version of the intake and TBs
03-17-2016, 08:54 PM
#233
to many differences between the two motors to even compare them. again, apples and oranges.
intakes make power, that is not being disputed.
Time and money (lots of) is all that is needed to design and produce a different intake for our cars.
intakes make power, that is not being disputed.
Time and money (lots of) is all that is needed to design and produce a different intake for our cars.
03-17-2016, 09:05 PM
#234
Nordschleife Master
Nobody is going to put the money (and you are absolutely right that developing an intake will take a lot of it) into something that won't sell enough of to recoup the cost.
Look at the guys on here who try to make stuff. Someone comes up with a plan. Lots of people say "Oooohhh. I want one." And a handful sell.
Greg is developing an "elbow macaroni" intake, kinda like on the Cayenne. I'd be curious to know how much time (man hours) he has in it. Fabricating, testing, refining & more fabrication, testing (repeat almost endlessly).
03-17-2016, 09:12 PM
#235
i was talking to him about it last week at his shop. its crazy how much work he puts in to it WHEN he has the free time to do that, when he is not working keeping the light on etc.
its going to be a very nice set up. makes me want a later motor..... then again, i might just have to convince him to help up 16v guys out. :-P
its going to be a very nice set up. makes me want a later motor..... then again, i might just have to convince him to help up 16v guys out. :-P
03-17-2016, 09:30 PM
#236
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This thread has been ruined. However, before it gets closed, I think it good to review some points I made earlier.....in case the background "noise" overwhelmed anyone else.
1. There's no question that the stock S4 intake system is restrictive when the engine displacement grows...or the cams get changed....or headers get added.
2. Is the stock intake system restrictive on a stock engine? I don't know, right now, but I will know as soon as my first pieces come back from production and I can do some additional testing on a stock engine.
3. The dollar investment in time to do planning, fabricating, testing, and production to make a manifold is huge. I'm going to have a minimum of 50K worth of time and pieces invested, before the first production manifold is completed. (I'm going to take a wild shot and say that any of the production manifolds pictured on this thread cost one hell of a lot more than 50K in initial developemnt.....)
4. Is there a payback for my investment in this tiny 928 world? It's very doubtful. If the payback needs to happen at ten units, I'm guessing the manifolds would be $7500 each. Doubtful that one could sell ten units, at that price. If the "928 market" was bigger and you could plan on a payback coming at 100 units, it might be possible to get the price down to $3500 or so (minimum production run stuff, offshore.) Is it possible to sell 100 complete manifolds for $3500 in the 928 world? Again, very doubtful.
5. Why am I making a manifold, if the payback is a joke? I'm on a slightly different agenda and need this manifold, for my own use. I've got clients with already built engines that will use it. I'm currently building engines that can use this manifold. My future plans have this manifold, in them. If it happens to be applicable to other people, they can use it, too!
6. If things go according to plan, we should have manifolds in the next couple of months!
1. There's no question that the stock S4 intake system is restrictive when the engine displacement grows...or the cams get changed....or headers get added.
2. Is the stock intake system restrictive on a stock engine? I don't know, right now, but I will know as soon as my first pieces come back from production and I can do some additional testing on a stock engine.
3. The dollar investment in time to do planning, fabricating, testing, and production to make a manifold is huge. I'm going to have a minimum of 50K worth of time and pieces invested, before the first production manifold is completed. (I'm going to take a wild shot and say that any of the production manifolds pictured on this thread cost one hell of a lot more than 50K in initial developemnt.....)
4. Is there a payback for my investment in this tiny 928 world? It's very doubtful. If the payback needs to happen at ten units, I'm guessing the manifolds would be $7500 each. Doubtful that one could sell ten units, at that price. If the "928 market" was bigger and you could plan on a payback coming at 100 units, it might be possible to get the price down to $3500 or so (minimum production run stuff, offshore.) Is it possible to sell 100 complete manifolds for $3500 in the 928 world? Again, very doubtful.
5. Why am I making a manifold, if the payback is a joke? I'm on a slightly different agenda and need this manifold, for my own use. I've got clients with already built engines that will use it. I'm currently building engines that can use this manifold. My future plans have this manifold, in them. If it happens to be applicable to other people, they can use it, too!
6. If things go according to plan, we should have manifolds in the next couple of months!
__________________
greg brown
714 879 9072
GregBBRD@aol.com
Semi-retired, as of Feb 1, 2023.
The days of free technical advice are over.
Free consultations will no longer be available.
Will still be in the shop, isolated and exclusively working on project cars, developmental work and products, engines and transmissions.
Have fun with your 928's people!
greg brown
714 879 9072
GregBBRD@aol.com
Semi-retired, as of Feb 1, 2023.
The days of free technical advice are over.
Free consultations will no longer be available.
Will still be in the shop, isolated and exclusively working on project cars, developmental work and products, engines and transmissions.
Have fun with your 928's people!
03-17-2016, 11:24 PM
#237
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This thread has been ruined. However, before it gets closed, I think it good to review some points I made earlier.....in case the background "noise" overwhelmed anyone else.
1. There's no question that the stock S4 intake system is restrictive when the engine displacement grows...or the cams get changed....or headers get added.
2. Is the stock intake system restrictive on a stock engine? I don't know, right now, but I will know as soon as my first pieces come back from production and I can do some additional testing on a stock engine.
3. The dollar investment in time to do planning, fabricating, testing, and production to make a manifold is huge. I'm going to have a minimum of 50K worth of time and pieces invested, before the first production manifold is completed. (I'm going to take a wild shot and say that any of the production manifolds pictured on this thread cost one hell of a lot more than 50K in initial developemnt.....)
4. Is there a payback for my investment in this tiny 928 world? It's very doubtful. If the payback needs to happen at ten units, I'm guessing the manifolds would be $7500 each. Doubtful that one could sell ten units, at that price. If the "928 market" was bigger and you could plan on a payback coming at 100 units, it might be possible to get the price down to $3500 or so (minimum production run stuff, offshore.) Is it possible to sell 100 complete manifolds for $3500 in the 928 world? Again, very doubtful.
5. Why am I making a manifold, if the payback is a joke? I'm on a slightly different agenda and need this manifold, for my own use. I've got clients with already built engines that will use it. I'm currently building engines that can use this manifold. My future plans have this manifold, in them. If it happens to be applicable to other people, they can use it, too!
6. If things go according to plan, we should have manifolds in the next couple of months!
1. There's no question that the stock S4 intake system is restrictive when the engine displacement grows...or the cams get changed....or headers get added.
2. Is the stock intake system restrictive on a stock engine? I don't know, right now, but I will know as soon as my first pieces come back from production and I can do some additional testing on a stock engine.
3. The dollar investment in time to do planning, fabricating, testing, and production to make a manifold is huge. I'm going to have a minimum of 50K worth of time and pieces invested, before the first production manifold is completed. (I'm going to take a wild shot and say that any of the production manifolds pictured on this thread cost one hell of a lot more than 50K in initial developemnt.....)
4. Is there a payback for my investment in this tiny 928 world? It's very doubtful. If the payback needs to happen at ten units, I'm guessing the manifolds would be $7500 each. Doubtful that one could sell ten units, at that price. If the "928 market" was bigger and you could plan on a payback coming at 100 units, it might be possible to get the price down to $3500 or so (minimum production run stuff, offshore.) Is it possible to sell 100 complete manifolds for $3500 in the 928 world? Again, very doubtful.
5. Why am I making a manifold, if the payback is a joke? I'm on a slightly different agenda and need this manifold, for my own use. I've got clients with already built engines that will use it. I'm currently building engines that can use this manifold. My future plans have this manifold, in them. If it happens to be applicable to other people, they can use it, too!
6. If things go according to plan, we should have manifolds in the next couple of months!
03-17-2016, 11:32 PM
#238
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Greg, I have scheduled for Colin to install his cams and shark tune on my bone stock 1990 S4 automatic. The only other mod will be xpipe and hi-flow cats. Do you have a prototype intake we can acquire and test as a component in this work? Just wondering if it would be instructive to measure the combined impact of these mods.
The appropriate prototype is cut apart for production dimensioning.
03-18-2016, 08:29 AM
#239
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Greg, if production version is for stroker motors as I suspect it is I want one real bad. Need to start planning some bank job to get finances ready on time. Four days drilling the vault over Easter should do it. 
03-18-2016, 01:53 PM
#240
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http://www.mustangandfords.com/featu...return-of-5-0/
Just look at what the mustang BOSS did to the power with an intake and slightly bigger valves and some head work. still a tame production car, that passes smog obviously, but the point is. they changed the long runner intake tube for this Aston Martin V8 style intake plennum and are pushing 450hp flywheel in stock form.
they can easily get this to the rear wheels with some minor tweaks.
Now, this is a 5 liter same as the 928 S4.. cams are a little more radical , with 12mm lift vs even the GT 10mm. but again, this is a stock engine. its rated at the flywheel 100 hp more than the GT. i dont know what the cam makes, because its a simlar cam to the coyote engine cam and both have 11:1 compression. the biggest change is head work and this new intake. valve size is 37mm intake. and bore and stroke is like a stroker crank 92mm, but a small bore diameter, 92mm. close to the v8 vantage demensions. it looks like our 100mm bore has advantages in that it uses a much shorter stroke.
encouraging to see that so much can be made from an intake
Just look at what the mustang BOSS did to the power with an intake and slightly bigger valves and some head work. still a tame production car, that passes smog obviously, but the point is. they changed the long runner intake tube for this Aston Martin V8 style intake plennum and are pushing 450hp flywheel in stock form.
they can easily get this to the rear wheels with some minor tweaks.
Now, this is a 5 liter same as the 928 S4.. cams are a little more radical , with 12mm lift vs even the GT 10mm. but again, this is a stock engine. its rated at the flywheel 100 hp more than the GT. i dont know what the cam makes, because its a simlar cam to the coyote engine cam and both have 11:1 compression. the biggest change is head work and this new intake. valve size is 37mm intake. and bore and stroke is like a stroker crank 92mm, but a small bore diameter, 92mm. close to the v8 vantage demensions. it looks like our 100mm bore has advantages in that it uses a much shorter stroke.
encouraging to see that so much can be made from an intake