Raced an ‘03-04 Yamaha YZF-R1 Super Bike…
#152
Three Wheelin'
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By Lag:
quote:
By John:
…nice move Lag, you stepped into that one stating the power was the same as that of a NA S4.
Nice move? Show me what is wrong with the numbers.
Let me spoon-feed you again with a hint: NOTHING.
I do understand that your obsessive-compulsive chest-beating requires you to make unsubstantiated claims as my all-time-favorite listed above, but there’s no disputing those numbers. That is the beauty of mathematics, and there's no getting around it, no matter how much ranting otherwise.
quote:
By John:
…nice move Lag, you stepped into that one stating the power was the same as that of a NA S4.
Nice move? Show me what is wrong with the numbers.
Let me spoon-feed you again with a hint: NOTHING.
I do understand that your obsessive-compulsive chest-beating requires you to make unsubstantiated claims as my all-time-favorite listed above, but there’s no disputing those numbers. That is the beauty of mathematics, and there's no getting around it, no matter how much ranting otherwise.
By John:
Maybe this Lag-Algebra merits study?
Maybe this Lag-Algebra merits study?
Here’s something more to back up my numbers I pre-digested for you. It’s a story about a 327 ci Ford in which they want to install a turbo and make 1000 hp:
http://www.popularhotrodding.com/eng...mm_grandtime1/
Here are some of the highlights pertinent to this ‘discussion’:
By above link:
While the serious GTB-88 turbo was more than capable of supplying the airflow needs to produce the required 1,000 hp, the more efficient the basic motor, the less boost would be required to reach our goal. Some simple math helps here. Normally aspirated motors actually have atmospheric pressure pushing the air into the cylinders. This pressure (at sea level and at a given temperature) is 14.7 psi or one bar. Doubling the power output of the motor can be as simple as doubling the pressure to the motor. Upping the pressure to two bar (14.7 psi above atmospheric) can double the power output of your motor.
While the serious GTB-88 turbo was more than capable of supplying the airflow needs to produce the required 1,000 hp, the more efficient the basic motor, the less boost would be required to reach our goal. Some simple math helps here. Normally aspirated motors actually have atmospheric pressure pushing the air into the cylinders. This pressure (at sea level and at a given temperature) is 14.7 psi or one bar. Doubling the power output of the motor can be as simple as doubling the pressure to the motor. Upping the pressure to two bar (14.7 psi above atmospheric) can double the power output of your motor.
By above link:
Here is where things start to get tricky. Suppose you have a 300hp normally aspirated motor and want to double the power output. If you install a turbo kit and set the waste gate to 14.7 psi, chances are you will nearly double the power output.
Here is where things start to get tricky. Suppose you have a 300hp normally aspirated motor and want to double the power output. If you install a turbo kit and set the waste gate to 14.7 psi, chances are you will nearly double the power output.
By above link:
This pressure-to-power conversion works at elevated power levels as well, which is why we chose to increase the power output of the normally aspirated motor in the first place. If we run 14.7 psi, we essentially double any power gains applied to the normally aspirated motor. An example works well here. Suppose our test motor produced 400 hp normally aspirated. If we applied 14.7 psi to the 400hp motor, we would expect something near 800 hp. If we upped the power output of our normally aspirated motor to 450 (a gain of 50 hp), the same 14.7 psi would give us something closer to 900 hp. If we take this scenario one step further, we can see that a 500hp normally aspirated motor will produce near our magical 1,000 hp at just 14.7 psi. Had we tried to produce 1,000 hp with a 300hp motor, it would take over 34 psi of boost, with a 400hp motor we could lower the boost to 22 psi, while a 500hp motor reduces it to the aforementioned 14.7 psi.
This pressure-to-power conversion works at elevated power levels as well, which is why we chose to increase the power output of the normally aspirated motor in the first place. If we run 14.7 psi, we essentially double any power gains applied to the normally aspirated motor. An example works well here. Suppose our test motor produced 400 hp normally aspirated. If we applied 14.7 psi to the 400hp motor, we would expect something near 800 hp. If we upped the power output of our normally aspirated motor to 450 (a gain of 50 hp), the same 14.7 psi would give us something closer to 900 hp. If we take this scenario one step further, we can see that a 500hp normally aspirated motor will produce near our magical 1,000 hp at just 14.7 psi. Had we tried to produce 1,000 hp with a 300hp motor, it would take over 34 psi of boost, with a 400hp motor we could lower the boost to 22 psi, while a 500hp motor reduces it to the aforementioned 14.7 psi.
By above link:
Remember, any power gained normally aspirated would be doubled at 14.7 psi.
Remember, any power gained normally aspirated would be doubled at 14.7 psi.
Here is the ‘Lag-Algebra’ again just in case you want to double-check the work:
By Lag, this thread page 8:
One may ask, well, what kind of calcs are you using? Fair enough, let’s make it easy to understand.
A normally aspirated engine is already operating under ‘boost’ since there’s 14.7 psi of atmospheric pressure rushing into the cylinders when the intake valve opens.
So the engine in question is putting out 205 hp at the crank at atmospheric pressure with the corresponding amount of fuel metered in for combustion to occur.
So now let’s ‘double’ the amount of ‘boost’, using a turbo, which would be the same as reading 14.7psi of positive manifold pressure on a gauge. Since we are now doubling the amount of air into the engine, we are also doubling the amount of fuel since we have to maintain the proper air/fuel ratio for combustion.
For all intents and purposes, this effectively doubles the engine’s horsepower! And this is the 'secret' of forced induction which allows a smaller engine to behave like a bigger engine; pretty simple, right?
So now we have:
205 crank hp x 2 = 410 crank hp
But according to John’s post, we didn’t double the amount of ‘boost’ as he states it’s running at 8 psi. So how much horsepower will 8psi give us at the crank? Let’s do some more easy calculations:
8psi / 14.7 psi = .544
.544 means that we are roughly one half over one atmosphere of pressure, or 1.544, or 1.544 Bar. Using that we now get:
205 crank hp x 1.544 Bar = 316.52 crank hp
I think it is safe to say that 317 is well South of the claimed ‘well North of 375’ hp statement.
What I just did is BASIC stuff, yet he doesn't seem to be aware of it, or else he would not have made those posts.
One may ask, well, what kind of calcs are you using? Fair enough, let’s make it easy to understand.
A normally aspirated engine is already operating under ‘boost’ since there’s 14.7 psi of atmospheric pressure rushing into the cylinders when the intake valve opens.
So the engine in question is putting out 205 hp at the crank at atmospheric pressure with the corresponding amount of fuel metered in for combustion to occur.
So now let’s ‘double’ the amount of ‘boost’, using a turbo, which would be the same as reading 14.7psi of positive manifold pressure on a gauge. Since we are now doubling the amount of air into the engine, we are also doubling the amount of fuel since we have to maintain the proper air/fuel ratio for combustion.
For all intents and purposes, this effectively doubles the engine’s horsepower! And this is the 'secret' of forced induction which allows a smaller engine to behave like a bigger engine; pretty simple, right?
So now we have:
205 crank hp x 2 = 410 crank hp
But according to John’s post, we didn’t double the amount of ‘boost’ as he states it’s running at 8 psi. So how much horsepower will 8psi give us at the crank? Let’s do some more easy calculations:
8psi / 14.7 psi = .544
.544 means that we are roughly one half over one atmosphere of pressure, or 1.544, or 1.544 Bar. Using that we now get:
205 crank hp x 1.544 Bar = 316.52 crank hp
I think it is safe to say that 317 is well South of the claimed ‘well North of 375’ hp statement.
What I just did is BASIC stuff, yet he doesn't seem to be aware of it, or else he would not have made those posts.
By John:
No, I don't have a dyno sheet, but based on the performance specs I have directly measured, road test articles done in 1984, and calibration results it would be a cold day in hell before the setup only delivered 317 off the crank. You guys know it and so do I.
No, I don't have a dyno sheet, but based on the performance specs I have directly measured, road test articles done in 1984, and calibration results it would be a cold day in hell before the setup only delivered 317 off the crank. You guys know it and so do I.
Since you like blowing your own horn so much:
I can stand here with an admittedely big mouth, because I do have a thorough understanding of both systems and what is required to make them work.
By John:
So sorry for the rest of you watching this post.
So sorry for the rest of you watching this post.
Last edited by Lagavulin; 09-11-2003 at 01:32 PM.
#153
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Originally posted by John.
Pete S.
For kicks, why don't you check out U.S. Patent 6,446,416.
Pete S.
For kicks, why don't you check out U.S. Patent 6,446,416.
Patent 6,446,416
I'm glad I was able to provide a way for you to work that in. We're all very impressed that you have a patent on how to put stuff into boxes. Obviously you feel that qualifies you to comment and speculate on all of the stuff that you have, including the work of others that you have no direct experience with, and never even seen. I guess it is a start though. At least it was a post with something to actually back it up, so you are making some progress.
With such brilliance, as you seem to think you have, why didn't you build your own twin turbo 928, instead of just buying one built by somebody else? Why all of the questions on some of the issues in the past? Heck, I mean if you can figure out how to put stuff in boxes there's no telling how superior the car would be if you built it.
Originally posted by John.
I do own a 1956 Lionel complete with the heated pellet stack and electric whistle. It also has the cool coal loader and luggage pickup unit which are considered rare accessories today.
I do own a 1956 Lionel complete with the heated pellet stack and electric whistle. It also has the cool coal loader and luggage pickup unit which are considered rare accessories today.
Originally posted by John.
I'm anxiously awaiting what comeback you will come up with next, especially since this topic now has nothing to do with 928s, Porsches or automobiles at all.
I'm anxiously awaiting what comeback you will come up with next, especially since this topic now has nothing to do with 928s, Porsches or automobiles at all.
Originally posted by PeteS
A legend in his own mind?
A legend in his own mind?
Originally posted by John.
Honestly, I really have nothing more to add.
Honestly, I really have nothing more to add.
#155
Burning Brakes
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I thought you guys were getting along? Mark Thomas's "challenge" will sort it out. And you get to keep 500 bucks, go to CA, drive on a dry lake bed, meet all the other "big guns" and go home with your own dyno sheet, knowing who stands where. (and what you need to do to gain ground "next year")
Now, if you each were forced to show ALL your receipt's for each HP project, we'd know who the real top gun was... HP/$, that's where it's at.- Ruf
Now, if you each were forced to show ALL your receipt's for each HP project, we'd know who the real top gun was... HP/$, that's where it's at.- Ruf
#156
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Originally posted by Rufus Sanders
")
Now, if you each were forced to show ALL your receipt's for each HP project, we'd know who the real top gun was... HP/$, that's where it's at.- Ruf
")
Now, if you each were forced to show ALL your receipt's for each HP project, we'd know who the real top gun was... HP/$, that's where it's at.- Ruf
PS: Don't let the wife know that I actually know that number.
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#157
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If you throw enough $$$ at any car, or engine, you can be king of the horsepower hill.
All the strongest components, and a supercharged stroker on nitrous oxide...
The cool thing is to make 500hp, on the stock bottom end, with bolt-on components, that do not require a rebuild, or tens of thousands of dollars...
Getting the same power, for less money, is the biggest winner in my book.
Because each person with a simple, 500 HP 928, is one more 928 to be out
there putting some respect into the Z06's, Camaros, Mustangs, 350Zs, etc...
The more the better, no matter if they are strokers, boostards, or NOS.
It's just nice to not have everyone assume that the 928 is a loser in the HP arena,
compared to other cars in the same class or category. It is a Porsche. It should
run like one, not just have the look...
All the strongest components, and a supercharged stroker on nitrous oxide...
The cool thing is to make 500hp, on the stock bottom end, with bolt-on components, that do not require a rebuild, or tens of thousands of dollars...
Getting the same power, for less money, is the biggest winner in my book.
Because each person with a simple, 500 HP 928, is one more 928 to be out
there putting some respect into the Z06's, Camaros, Mustangs, 350Zs, etc...
The more the better, no matter if they are strokers, boostards, or NOS.
It's just nice to not have everyone assume that the 928 is a loser in the HP arena,
compared to other cars in the same class or category. It is a Porsche. It should
run like one, not just have the look...
#158
Nordschleife Master
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Originally posted by Tim Murphy
I made the mistake of adding it up once.... I won't be doing that again.
PS: Don't let the wife know that I actually know that number.
I made the mistake of adding it up once.... I won't be doing that again.
PS: Don't let the wife know that I actually know that number.
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#159
Burning Brakes
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Big Daddy Glen! Cool! The admiration of the kids is a must. I had to put my son's name on my lic. plate, but it worked. he thinks Porshce's are the only way to go, and he;s only nine! - Ruf
PS - Nice avittar. Your car is so distinct.
PS - Nice avittar. Your car is so distinct.
#160
Nordschleife Master
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Yep. Definately agree there.
And thanks. Let me give credit to Ernest Wong for taking the photo. There are more from the Labor Day PCA race at www.928racing.com
And thanks. Let me give credit to Ernest Wong for taking the photo. There are more from the Labor Day PCA race at www.928racing.com
#162
Drifting
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Pass the milk duds Tony. We should sit through the credits to see if there is one of those secret alternative endings. I heard this one would hit 200 replies.
Andy K
Andy K
#163
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Go Ride - I can give you your wheels back now. How di you want me to get them to you?
Thanks,
Thanks,
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Oh crap.......... I thought this would eventually drift to nitro-methane + juice + boost + strokers...........
Quartermilers!!
What to do with the popcorn and beer??
Quartermilers!!
What to do with the popcorn and beer??
#165
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Yeah but if the YZF had been stroked..........
I think this should be the official "say anything you want" post so it can keep getting bumped and it will always be there to show visitors who not to mess with.
Little messages like:
Brendan,
It'll be about 2 weeks before I can come pick them up. I can't wait to see those hollow spokes on your car.
Andy K
will keep it going.
I think this should be the official "say anything you want" post so it can keep getting bumped and it will always be there to show visitors who not to mess with.
Little messages like:
Brendan,
It'll be about 2 weeks before I can come pick them up. I can't wait to see those hollow spokes on your car.
Andy K
will keep it going.