Tim Murphy

The 26 psi Red car is at 7.56:1 compression. The motor is now apart and the rod bearings look like new. The car had a head gasket failure as the result of the lack of fuel and resultant detonation. Before this incident we were discussing the theory of what might be going on when there is a drop in fuel pressure (which we were experiencing) and the theory was the potential to starve the number 4 cylinder, or the furthest injector from the feed line and that is exactly what happened. Not all is lost here, we learned a lot, no more marginal calls on the system is the biggest lesson. The Red car and I are pushing the envelope here, no question about it. You have to understand, when we come up with ideas on how to make it better and make more ponies we can't just sit on those ideas, we must act on them, it is the foundation of who we are. The gentleman with the 26psi Red car is a true pioneer here. For those of you that know him or have just met him know what I mean when I say he has a complete understanding of an internal combustion engine. Not just an understanding of how it works but a fundamental understanding of everything that is going on with the engine with respect to rotating mass, heat transfer, combustion, lubrication, metallurgy, etc. He knows how these things work. When something breaks, he figures out why and fixes it so it will never break again and this is what he has done all his life. I will take credit for being the one who gave him a ride in my car last fall and his comment, over and over again was, "OK, I have to get one of these!!!" I spoke with him last night and it sounds to me like he has signed his lifetime 928 membership card. I will lay the gauntlet here; NO ONE will ever catch up to the street-able HP that he brings to his car, NO ONE.
With all that being said, it is my true belief that running boost into these cars under 10psi will provide plenty of longevity and in most cases the longevity will exceed our lifetimes. I am selectively releasing kits for the 87-89 cars (every year is different) but I will say that there is still a lot of development work to be done to continue to enhance these exceptional cars. It only gets better from here!!

Drewster67

Dude, That TT GN is Brutal! 1076HP -

Thanks for the entertainment!

Gregg K

Hey John,
That's why I was running my turbo car on propane. What's the octane rating of propane? Something like 120? I know it's not an option on a car like this where the tank would be an issue. Just a comment on a twenty year old memory of a project I enjoyed immensely.
And what's more, propane doesn't wash the fuel off the cylinder walls, which can increase the lifespan to a half million miles or more.

bcdavis

I am just very happy that people are out there going for *maximum* horsepower, not just reliable horsepower. To say the 928 is "just a GT" or "a freeway car" or "not a dragracer", is a cop-out...

Yes, it was *designed* that way, but that is not to say it can't be modified, and changed, and improved. Same way a stock 911 is not impressive, but people respect the 930 turbo, etc...

I am just incredibly pleased that the environment has changed in the 928 community, from one where you had to accept your car as it is, or spend $20,000 on a stroker engine... Hardly anyone was running superchargers, or nitrous, or turbos, when I first got my car. I think one of the reasons people are willing to experiment more now, is the easy availibility of cheap parts cars where you can salvage a usable block, pistons, crank, etc, and experiment on it...

It took a brave and talented group of driven individuals to go out there and just go for it, and bolt it on their cars, and trust in their talents and knowledge to come up with something that works... Not everyone is able to toss a kit on in a weekend, as the Projekt928 situation illustrated... But these people are really out there on the front lines, doing what others said was impossible, or impractical, or unwise...

I look forward to the day in the near future, when these 928s will be making over 1000 horsepower, and playing with the big boys, and showing those people in those American cars, that these 928s have the muscle to take them on... and they handle! And look better! Our cars are so much better than the average Mustang or Camaro or Supra. It sucks that those guys have so much hot-rod gear, and if they want to spend the money, they can make incredible horsepower. I know our engines are better built than your average Mustang engine. So why can't we have the same power levels? I know the 928 parts are expensive. But I wanted to know why no one was really pushing the limits... People were racing, and doing strokers. But $20,000 for a 200 HP increase? No one was building really strong motors, with dual turbos, or superchargers, or nitrous... Or all of the above... If a stock Mustang engine can handle a supercharger kit, or nitrous, ours sure can... I'm just glad people finally went and did it. Kudos to Tim, FAST, Huntley, and all the others that are out there experimenting...

When you guys get it all dialed in, and you decide to manufacture kits, you will have people beating down your doors to buy them...

Drewster67

Z - I use to be heavy into Mustangs - Check these links out.

Not to hijack this thread and my apologies in advance.
Pretty Impressive.


http://slugbitchracing.com/clips/DynoPeg2mb.wmv


http://slugbitchracing.com/clips/bumper.avi

http://slugbitchracing.com/clips/89LX%20Dyno%20Flog.wmv

Normy

Lagavulin-

Good show! Of course....now I want you to go out and race a "Busa" [GSXR-1300 Hyabusa] instead of some twink bike.

Motorcycles are great for acceleration...but despite their quarter mile prowess...they aren't too good at higher speeds. Aerodynamics are not their strong point, and there is the scale effect as well.

Point: I keep in my living room a '76 Honda CB-750-four. It weighs 480 pounds, has a 736 cc engine that develops 67 horsepower at 8000 rpm. I've never had it on a track, but according to Honda, it was capable of low 12 second quarter mile times at around 105 mph. From my own screwing around, I can tell you that my good-running CB can waste any stock Harley, and has a top speed of about 120 mph.

Yes, a vehicle with a 120 mph top speed that can run with Dodge Vipers through the quarter mile. And this thing is the equivalent of krill in the motorcycle food chain.....

YEAH...I'd still KILL to hear what that ******* told his buddies the next day: "Damn dudes...I got up against this guy in a 928. Man, don't run those guys- that f*ucking thing wasted my ***!"

Lag...I'm still kinda...interested in reading exactly just what a 572 horsepower Porsche 928 can do at a drag strip. You ought to take that car to one of the stips near your house and revert some of your rubber [damn, that sounds so sexual for some reason.....] and post the results here....



N o r m y ~ !

'85 S2 5 Speed

Lagavulin

It’s quite easy, actually, especially when Tim's driving his car too!

Since you put the ‘real’ in there, I would agree to that.

Sounds to me you’re shooting from the hip. What precedence do you have to make such a statement?? Can you cite ANY 928 engine blowing it’s bottom end other than the 2-6 failures?

We’ve got proof that the stock bottom end can handle 800hp at 26psi:

Looks pretty damn robust to me, and it was pounded on.

I echo that! I was SO disappointed with the performance of the stock S4, and even more so when I discovered there’s really no aftermarket parts to make it go significantly faster without dropping a ridiculous amount of money for ‘only’ an additional 150 rwhp.

And then I came across the post by Z showing Tim’s car putting out 465 rwhp; WOW!!! I have been excited ever since.

The kits are already dialed in for 11 psi (..and under) at which my car is currently running; no changes are required for that level of boost. Tim will be shipping the kits at 8 psi though.

On the other hand, 14 psi is not dialed in, and will require modifications to run reliably.
Thank you.

We are too, but at this point there’s just so much going on to make a day of it. Once we do it though, the numbers will be posted.

Yeah, like I wrote earlier, I’m sure if that were the bike versus the YZF, I would have lost. I would probably need another 3 psi in order to give one a run for it’s money!

John.

Quote from Brendan...

************************************************************
"Forced Induction" by A. Graham Bell is where many are getting thier info from.

Callaway did them wrong. Didn't your 928 come from Callaway with a non-adjusted twin turbo system? Meaning that they didn't change any part of the car for the added HEAT STRESS that the turbo makes? Didn't the cam have a barn door maf? Callaway broke a whole bunch of 928s by doing the process incorrectly. Obviously, you are doing it correctly with your signal processing and the MAf you are using. Thats good....

Sure, 10:1 is high. But the 26psi guy didn't break any piston ring lands, or have any issue with the free-standing tower. He blew a head gasket on number four because of a lean issue caused by the fact that that cylinder is the farthest from the fuel line intake. All the other injectors were using the fuel up before it got over there (this is the assesment so far).

And I would assume this guy is driving this car like a bat out of hell. I would have to think so with 800hp of whatever he has.

************************************************************

Brendan,

Perhaps you can start a post and educate all of us about the details of turbocharging and supercharging. Please be sure to include your intimate knowledge of compressor sizing, compressor efficiency, charge air cooling, fuel system requirements, fuel octane, ignition advance, etc., etc., etc.

While your are at it, please inform us of the details of the early Callaway turbo systems, and why they were "wrong", as well as the added thermal loads you contend are on the turbocharged car but seemingly don't think exist on the centrifugal supercharger cars. Also, be sure to explain how what is being done today with these centrifugal blowers is any different than what Callaway did over 20 years ago. While you are at it, take a look at the metallurgy of the pistons in the early cars and the later S4 cars and inform us of the differences. Also be sure to tell us about the internal engine changes done on the centrifugal supercharger cars to counteract the added HEAT STRESS the centrifugal blower puts on the car. Also please tell us how many cars Callaway broke in the process and where this happened. By your statements this must have been in Old Lyme at their factory.

Also, your could clear up a lot of misunderstanding by telling us all what a "mass airflow barn door" is, as well as when hot wire mass airflow sensors became standard issue on a 928.

Then for kicks, go back and dig through your records and pull out written documentation on ANY (and I stress any) 928 running around the United States in early (i.e. April) 1983 with 400 crankshaft horsepower....Yes, that is before any 928 even had 16 valve heads...and before a lot of people on this board could even get a driver's licence, myself included.

The thing I love about Rennlist is everybody is a self appointed PHD on the subject at hand.

Lagavulin

Sure, Brendan can be an easy target sometimes, but look who’s talking:

Perhaps you TOO can start a post and educate all of us regarding the details of 928 bottom ends and the loads induced upon them and their failure points. Please be sure to include YOUR intimate knowledge of rods, cranks, journal sizes, bearing materials, etc.

After all, since you state ‘I’d also mention..’, sounds like to me you have exclusive, privy information you’d like to share with us.

Again, please state any precedence, and cite examples to support your claim pertaining to the alleged lack of robustness of the 928 bottom end, excluding the well known 2-6 failures on the race track which typically occurs in a high speed turn.

PeteS

Is that real horsepower, or more of that "marketing horsepower" that you mentioned for the Callaway in a previous thread? Got a dyno sheet?

As far as what was "wrong" with the Callaway system, all anyone has to do is go back and read some of YOUR posts complaining about the fuel enrichment that they used. I guess you've got that all figured out though. Finished tuning it yet? Again, got any dyno sheets on it now?

You've also brought up the issue of the cast pistons. Do YOU have any information on their metalurgy, failure rates, stresses that they're designed to handle, or anything else for that matter. Have you ever even seen a later model piston?

For somebody that's asked quite a few questions on a lot of this stuff in the past, you sure seem to think that you've suddenly become an expert on it. I suppose that could be from all of the testing you've done on boosted 32v engines. Maybe you've got all kinds of test data on those that you'd like to share. What are you charging for the boosted 32v valve kit that you've reasearched and designed? I mean somebody that's so quick to make statements on this sort of stuff must surely have vast amounts of reasearch and data on the subject, right? From the sound of things, you must have a 32v engine making just huge amounts of power. Is all that information classified as top secret?

Tony

NOW-NOW Kiddies!

Be nice.

The fact is we are all experts on this car to some degree or another...each of us have our areas of familiartity. The great thing is we choose to share what we know or DONT know on here. WE ALL BENEFIT either way.

So...Next time ya'll get in a pi$$ing contest, dont do it into the wind...K


Slainte


off

Fastest928

I am looking for a reason to go open road racing again......there appears to be SO many folks out there with such fast supercharged 928 that maybe one of them want to do an open road race?

I am looking for some company in the 200 mph club, and it appears that there are so many 492rwhp or higher that it would be a simple matter of showing up, punching the radar and collecting the award.

We have Tims, Lags, "the mystery Red 928 with 590+ rwhp", Mark H and about 6 or so others that should be able to punch the barrier....

Here is an opportunity to do what the 928 does best...run at high speed for long periods of time....at altitude. Perfect for the tremendously reliable supercharger 928 out there.

Hmm, maybe time to slap on a blower onto my 340 rwhp 5.0 combo...


BTW, where is the dyno sheet for this reputed 41 psi blower 928 engine.....and I remember someone saying that it was an all stock 5.0 bottom end...?

Lagavulin

We have a better, safer idea which we’ve been tossing around. We’re thinking about putting together a DE car and run it at Road America, the longest, fastest track in North America. And it's right here, literally in our backyard.

The thought is, if the car leaves the track, there is help RIGHT NOW if anything worse happened, versus being out in the middle of ‘nowhere’ and something physical-body-wise happens. Open road racing sounds like lots of fun though!

I give you all the credit in the world for being there and doing it; it's indisputable, and my hat is off to you!

Let’s talk hypothetically now. We all know that top speed is all about top-end horsepower, and all anyone has to do is take a look at the dyno charts and observe how the Devek stroker’s power falls off after 6k RPM:

http://www.devek.net/index.php?page=nfo_dynoroom

On the other hand, a supercharged 928 is still pulling hard at this point. And as Z has already pointed out, Tim’s car is putting out 100 rwhp more at max RPM.

Continuing our hypothesis, since the Devek White Car did 209 mph with the above dyno configuration, then it is reasonable to assume that that chassis combo would go even faster if Tim’s engine were dropped in and another run is made.

Hypothetically, the Devek motor would then become the second fastest 928 motor.

Nice jab, and deserved too!

However, that’s the ONLY concession I’ll give you.

As far as making horsepower though, you are already left in the dust, and it’s only going to get worse if you stick to normally aspirated. Maybe you can close the gap somewhat if you punch the engine out to 7.0L like Huntley already has.

The 928 engine is rock solid straight from Stuttgart, begging for more horsepower. Who’s to say whether it needs a tougher bottom end and constitutes a reliability issue? If so, what precedence exists to back up the claim? Who has run the same amount of horsepower, let alone with a stock block (..7.5cr 944 turbo pistons) like the 26psi Red S4 has?

The issues we’re currently having have nothing to do with the long block itself. We are in the process of beefing up the subsystems which supports the long block, and in this case, the entire fuel delivery system. Once we do this, we are confident the sky is the limit.

I’ll be the first to say talk is cheap, and I’m doing too much, I know.

Let’s just wait and see how things stack up in the future. We will provide full disclosure on our progress, just as we have with the head gasket failures.

In the meantime, just as there’s no disputing the Devek White Car is the fastest 928, likewise, there’s no disputing the supercharged 928’s are putting out the most horsepower, and will continue to widen the gap.

Competition is good for everyone, and helps keep one on their toes pushing!

Old & New

Top speed is cool & incredibly dangerous. Consider aerodynamics, tires, etc., and the need for a long, safe, legal place to do the testing.

The typical driver might be more interested in more usable, real-world performance. How would the White Car stack up against the MURF928 in the quarter mile? One mile?

Tony

Sounds to me the best and the safest place to do all this is out on the Salt Flats in UT during speed week. I dont think youd catch me doing 200+mph on a Co. road in NV. Takes ***** IMHO and all the power (no pun) to those that have done it but. Just doesnt seem to be the smartest place to do it. I wish i could dig up pictures of Carl Youngs once beautiful Twin Turbo after it, and damn near he and his wife, met its demise. I think his car after blowing a tire, at 180+mph, did more rolls than Blue Angel #1 at a typical airshow.


Anyway...the venue and the rules...
http://www.scta-bni.org/
Pick a time in the future and show up guys.

Tech your car, pay your dues and check your policy and away you go.
200 mph is on my list of things to do in my life....in something without wings.