Seriously, why are headers so expensive for this car?
12-31-2012, 05:21 PM
#61
Nordschleife Master
Glen: I wasn't disagreeing with Michael, I was bringing in another dimension: quality and transparency about quality. I am willing to accept that small series of performance parts for an out of favor car will be expensive. But I think that given how expensive those parts will be, it's all the more reason to have the benefits really well documented.
12-31-2012, 05:26 PM
#62
I've found that those who feel the need to spout how much they make tend to not make a fraction of that amount spouted.
Very similar to the guy who always tells everyone how big his **** is.
Very similar to the guy who always tells everyone how big his **** is.
12-31-2012, 05:38 PM
#63
Three Wheelin'
So many douchebags in this forum, especially the first post.
Anyways, i agree with you Ledee! Finally someone who agrees. I don't scoff at prices much anymore though, because i've accepted it as a part of 928 ownership. Just by pulling my motor i need about $4000 worth of parts to put the motor back in and have it run like brand new with peace of mind in me. I agree with some people in that it is just simply a supply and demand problem. Look at R&P options for the 928... there are none, but there was a couple years ago i think when some machine shop made a batch of 3.06 gears, but they were something outrageous like $2000 or so.
Also, Mark, give me some time!! I'm 19 working for minimum wage, nearly broke! Lol.
Anyways, i agree with you Ledee! Finally someone who agrees. I don't scoff at prices much anymore though, because i've accepted it as a part of 928 ownership. Just by pulling my motor i need about $4000 worth of parts to put the motor back in and have it run like brand new with peace of mind in me. I agree with some people in that it is just simply a supply and demand problem. Look at R&P options for the 928... there are none, but there was a couple years ago i think when some machine shop made a batch of 3.06 gears, but they were something outrageous like $2000 or so.
Also, Mark, give me some time!! I'm 19 working for minimum wage, nearly broke! Lol.
12-31-2012, 05:45 PM
#64
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He had no idea the MSDS headers were on the market for $600. If the only option for headers he knew about were $3,000+ custom jobs - that puts his post into perspective.
I never said the 355 (or any Ferrari) was going to be cheaper to own compared to a 928 or 911 (depends on the 911, buy a 996 with a RMS that's going to go, you will wish you bought a Ferrari).
On the scale of Ferrari's; history, care and maintenance goes a long way. You can find horror stories from every model Ferrari ever made. In my experience, garage queens tend to be the most expensive to own, drive them often and driven them hard (once the oil is up to temp) and they are incredible runners.
The 430? More of them have probably burst into flames than 355's were produced
(I'm being facetious).Besides, arguing about the reliability and cost of various Ferrari's compared to other Ferrari's is like starting a argument on which Playmate of the month has the nicest *****. It's all relative.
What can I say? Every "expert" will tell you the early XK8 with the 4.0 motor is a time bomb waiting to go off. Meanwhile my mother has a 97 that will pass 180k this year. Purchased with 60k on the odo, the timing chain covers have never been off.
Back to 928's, I've seen cars with tens of thousands of dollars in repair orders that are still not 100%. Cherry picking the bad apples does nothing but further expand internet folklore and BS about any model.
12-31-2012, 08:35 PM
#66
Three Wheelin'
I don't personally mind the price, if the benefits are there.
My biggest complaint about the 928 performance parts market is that the people selling the parts don't publish credible before and after dyno results. Most other interesting cars makes and models appear to have following "kits" available: say headers, cat back, cams, and valve springs. A kit has a clear explanation of how it's supposed to work and where from the power gains are supposed to come. Then, there's a dyno result before and after by the firm making the kit on an otherwise factory stock car. Finally, independent tuners are publishing their results with the kit so there is independent confirmation of the results. Those kinds of kits aren't cheap, but you can be somewhat confident that they are not scams either.
Dyno results are not perfect and are often falsified in a way that even the torque and power aren't consistent. But actual dyno results are a whole hell of a lot better than the "just trust me I am a guru" which one has to rely on if there's irrational aversion to using dynos as means to prove claims. And the people buying the parts can verify the claims on an independent dyno.
The turbo kit I bought from a party to remain unnamed is how it's supposed to work. I got a full explanation of the design principles, a firm price quote, and a predicted power increase. The actual results exceeded the predictions. It wasn't cheap, but it wasn't more expensive than expected in terms of $/hp.
Another example how it's done right is the X-pipe design and testing by Louie Ott. The dyno results are there on his web site still even though he's not selling the pipes anymore.
Maybe it's that there's no spec racing of 928. The American cars have the drag strip and the fun imports have road course racing. Maybe it's that racing is the sunlight that disinfects the market.
My biggest complaint about the 928 performance parts market is that the people selling the parts don't publish credible before and after dyno results. Most other interesting cars makes and models appear to have following "kits" available: say headers, cat back, cams, and valve springs. A kit has a clear explanation of how it's supposed to work and where from the power gains are supposed to come. Then, there's a dyno result before and after by the firm making the kit on an otherwise factory stock car. Finally, independent tuners are publishing their results with the kit so there is independent confirmation of the results. Those kinds of kits aren't cheap, but you can be somewhat confident that they are not scams either.
Dyno results are not perfect and are often falsified in a way that even the torque and power aren't consistent. But actual dyno results are a whole hell of a lot better than the "just trust me I am a guru" which one has to rely on if there's irrational aversion to using dynos as means to prove claims. And the people buying the parts can verify the claims on an independent dyno.
The turbo kit I bought from a party to remain unnamed is how it's supposed to work. I got a full explanation of the design principles, a firm price quote, and a predicted power increase. The actual results exceeded the predictions. It wasn't cheap, but it wasn't more expensive than expected in terms of $/hp.
Another example how it's done right is the X-pipe design and testing by Louie Ott. The dyno results are there on his web site still even though he's not selling the pipes anymore.
Maybe it's that there's no spec racing of 928. The American cars have the drag strip and the fun imports have road course racing. Maybe it's that racing is the sunlight that disinfects the market.
I put a set of what I consider the best equal length headers for a 5L 928 on a GT that had 150k miles on it. Those headers came from a former 928 performance shop in the Bay Area, CA. I think they retailed for around $1k-$1200, but can't exactly remember. They are the only ones I know of where the clutch housing can be removed with the headers in place. That GT had an X pipe I had made and 2.5" rear exhaust, no cats. It made the standard 325 - 327 rwhp. I doubted that the headers would add much more, but did it anyway at owners request. I made a 3" to 2.5" transition to mate the header collector to the new 2.5" X pipe size. The rest of the rear exhaust was the same as before. I was really surprised when that GT pumped out 350 lb ft tq at around 3000RPM and 349 rwhp at ~ 6000, after a Sharktune. Those headers added about 25 lb ft and 25 hp over what had been an already powerful stock GT. They work. I subsequently acquired the car and drove it for a while. It was surplus to me and I sold it shortly after. The new owner put in a new interior and replaced many of the suspension parts. It looks and drives like new with over 240k miles now. Nothing but routine work done on the engine. He did put in an upgraded cam set with 24 lb injectors and it makes even more power now. I saw it last August and got to drive it. Perfect in every respect. No need for a stroker or SC.
I remember asking the former shop owner about the headers thinking maybe I could get some more made. The fab shop would only make 20 sets minimum and his cost wasn't much less than he was selling them for. He wasn't getting rich from supplying them and the up front cost plus trying to sell them and ship them didn't pencil out to even try it.
12-31-2012, 09:27 PM
#67
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Hey, a thread about my two favorite cars! Coincidentally, my 355 is in the shop right now for some new headers. They're a known weakness of the model and I expected them to eventually spring a leak, and after 13 years the driver side header finally did. The new ones have better tubing and should last the life of the car. As for the 928, so far I'm happy with the exhaust and will probably keep it stock (except for the great sounding RMB).
I'll go along with that!
I'll go along with that!
12-31-2012, 09:31 PM
#68
I was tempted by a 550 or 575 with manual gearbox a couple of years ago.. thankfully I resolved to get my 928 habit under control first I'm down to 2 928's.. so its almost back to a hobby (and not a "habit" 
). The price of ferrari parts is just plain amusing.. makes 928 ownership seem pretty cheap.
I'm down to 2 928's.. so its almost back to a hobby (and not a "habit" ). The price of ferrari parts is just plain amusing.. makes 928 ownership seem pretty cheap.
12-31-2012, 10:03 PM
#69
Nordschleife Master
I don't see why people are wasting their money at a clinic. $15 at Walmart buys a Roadhouse DVD, thread and some needles (get the curved ones) and pint of Jack Daniels analgesic disinfectant. Do not start drinking until ready for stitching, then cue up the video and follow along.
Lots of header manufacturers are down near Temecula. Just drive down with a $89 welder from Harbor Freight and some sections of pipe from a Jegs header kit and pull into a donut shop parking lot and say who can weld headers? Maybe $100 right there in the parking lot while you wait inside sipping coffee and eating donuts.
Lots of header manufacturers are down near Temecula. Just drive down with a $89 welder from Harbor Freight and some sections of pipe from a Jegs header kit and pull into a donut shop parking lot and say who can weld headers? Maybe $100 right there in the parking lot while you wait inside sipping coffee and eating donuts.
12-31-2012, 11:38 PM
#72
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There are a few threads on here about installing the headers with the engine in the car - I can't imagine how they did it. Maybe those headers have a slightly different bend setup than mine do.
01-01-2013, 03:31 AM
#73
Three Wheelin'
Before you post these threads, ask yourself what value you are adding. Please.
That is one medical practice I do not want to take my business to. I don't want anyone who thinks that the cheapest alternative is always the best alternative.
What I find odd about your complaints is that you keep saying "because it says Porsche on it" and most of the parts you bitch about are aftermarket, made by small companies who are trying to make quality parts as cheap as possible. I know you'll disagree, but what I read in your posts is a clear misunderstanding (despite numerous replies) of economies of scale and the difference between cheaply, mass-produced parts and quality, small-batch parts. Over and over you miss this point, only to post a new complaint that something for which you have no equal comparison is overpriced.
So, how about you go and ask a few metal fabricators how much it would cost to make headers. Say a batch of 25. Bring back the answer, or keep it to yourself. But research before you complain. Find out if it really is overpriced and you can prove it to the same audience who keeps telling you to stop.
As for the Ferrari being a true supercar. It sure is. But the 928 cost the same as its Ferrari 308 and 328 counterparts when new. It had comparable (usually superior) performance numbers, and it was a more complex machine. The volume of cars sold by year is not magnitudes different. 20,000 308/328 and 60,000 928s in total. In production terms, that's not a big difference. The number still on the road (well, most Ferraris rarely get driven) is probably even closer. So why should Porsche 928 parts be so much cheaper?
Matt
What I find odd about your complaints is that you keep saying "because it says Porsche on it" and most of the parts you bitch about are aftermarket, made by small companies who are trying to make quality parts as cheap as possible. I know you'll disagree, but what I read in your posts is a clear misunderstanding (despite numerous replies) of economies of scale and the difference between cheaply, mass-produced parts and quality, small-batch parts. Over and over you miss this point, only to post a new complaint that something for which you have no equal comparison is overpriced.
So, how about you go and ask a few metal fabricators how much it would cost to make headers. Say a batch of 25. Bring back the answer, or keep it to yourself. But research before you complain. Find out if it really is overpriced and you can prove it to the same audience who keeps telling you to stop.
As for the Ferrari being a true supercar. It sure is. But the 928 cost the same as its Ferrari 308 and 328 counterparts when new. It had comparable (usually superior) performance numbers, and it was a more complex machine. The volume of cars sold by year is not magnitudes different. 20,000 308/328 and 60,000 928s in total. In production terms, that's not a big difference. The number still on the road (well, most Ferraris rarely get driven) is probably even closer. So why should Porsche 928 parts be so much cheaper?
Matt
01-01-2013, 08:07 AM
#74
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Hi Tuomo,
I put a set of what I consider the best equal length headers for a 5L 928 on a GT that had 150k miles on it. Those headers came from a former 928 performance shop in the Bay Area, CA. I think they retailed for around $1k-$1200, but can't exactly remember. They are the only ones I know of where the clutch housing can be removed with the headers in place. That GT had an X pipe I had made and 2.5" rear exhaust, no cats. It made the standard 325 - 327 rwhp. I doubted that the headers would add much more, but did it anyway at owners request. I made a 3" to 2.5" transition to mate the header collector to the new 2.5" X pipe size. The rest of the rear exhaust was the same as before. I was really surprised when that GT pumped out 350 lb ft tq at around 3000RPM and 349 rwhp at ~ 6000, after a Sharktune. Those headers added about 25 lb ft and 25 hp over what had been an already powerful stock GT. They work. I subsequently acquired the car and drove it for a while. It was surplus to me and I sold it shortly after. The new owner put in a new interior and replaced many of the suspension parts. It looks and drives like new with over 240k miles now. Nothing but routine work done on the engine. He did put in an upgraded cam set with 24 lb injectors and it makes even more power now. I saw it last August and got to drive it. Perfect in every respect. No need for a stroker or SC.
I remember asking the former shop owner about the headers thinking maybe I could get some more made. The fab shop would only make 20 sets minimum and his cost wasn't much less than he was selling them for. He wasn't getting rich from supplying them and the up front cost plus trying to sell them and ship them didn't pencil out to even try it.
I put a set of what I consider the best equal length headers for a 5L 928 on a GT that had 150k miles on it. Those headers came from a former 928 performance shop in the Bay Area, CA. I think they retailed for around $1k-$1200, but can't exactly remember. They are the only ones I know of where the clutch housing can be removed with the headers in place. That GT had an X pipe I had made and 2.5" rear exhaust, no cats. It made the standard 325 - 327 rwhp. I doubted that the headers would add much more, but did it anyway at owners request. I made a 3" to 2.5" transition to mate the header collector to the new 2.5" X pipe size. The rest of the rear exhaust was the same as before. I was really surprised when that GT pumped out 350 lb ft tq at around 3000RPM and 349 rwhp at ~ 6000, after a Sharktune. Those headers added about 25 lb ft and 25 hp over what had been an already powerful stock GT. They work. I subsequently acquired the car and drove it for a while. It was surplus to me and I sold it shortly after. The new owner put in a new interior and replaced many of the suspension parts. It looks and drives like new with over 240k miles now. Nothing but routine work done on the engine. He did put in an upgraded cam set with 24 lb injectors and it makes even more power now. I saw it last August and got to drive it. Perfect in every respect. No need for a stroker or SC.
I remember asking the former shop owner about the headers thinking maybe I could get some more made. The fab shop would only make 20 sets minimum and his cost wasn't much less than he was selling them for. He wasn't getting rich from supplying them and the up front cost plus trying to sell them and ship them didn't pencil out to even try it.
01-01-2013, 10:00 AM
#75
Nordschleife Master
I do wish I could plan out my expenditures for best performance for the cost. As it is, I need to use my own judgement and take it to the dyno for engine mods and to the track for handling mods.
The engine is simple enough, in that regard but the track evaluation is a mess. There's low chance I'll take the car to the track without multiple modifications at once with tire degradation being continual. And I might be getting a bit better out there. As is always said, "learn to drive" is the cheapest (and most fun) track modification.
As to the OP: 52