New Product: 928 Competition Suspension Kit
#61
Rennlist Member
I think now is a good time to ask for the "Mine feels right because...." and not compare to Carls shocks/springs/etc because that's a WHOLE NOTHER Religion...and not really part of this thread.
Suspension setups are very individual to the driver..even if half shot, the driver can be happy with it, and turn good times.
Suspension setups are very individual to the driver..even if half shot, the driver can be happy with it, and turn good times.
#62
Former Sponsor
Carl, I like the concept of this, especially for track cars. For everyday street cars I can't really see the benefit vs cost, but of course that is up to end consumer to decide.
Now in the original post, you said you have bits ready to send out 9 sets to customers immediately. Considering that this setup has never seen a mile on your car yet (only bench tested) do you think this is a prudent business move? Personally if I was dropping over 3K for new shocks, springs and mounts I would want them to be tested thoroughly on a car before I bought them.
I understand that you have made it clear that this is a new product. What type of guarantee are you offering with this product if it doesn't perform to expectation? I hope it isn't new product, $3778, buyer beware!
Now in the original post, you said you have bits ready to send out 9 sets to customers immediately. Considering that this setup has never seen a mile on your car yet (only bench tested) do you think this is a prudent business move? Personally if I was dropping over 3K for new shocks, springs and mounts I would want them to be tested thoroughly on a car before I bought them.
I understand that you have made it clear that this is a new product. What type of guarantee are you offering with this product if it doesn't perform to expectation? I hope it isn't new product, $3778, buyer beware!
In one post Carl is trying to sell 9 sets of untested "stuff".
In the next post, Carl is waiting to do initial (he calls it final, but it is initial) testing on his own car.
Which is it?
Look, I've been kind enough to help people get "past" problems with Carl's stuff, by selling them the "correct" pieces, at my own cost (front upper control arms, made for racing, that Carl sold to a total street guy and wouldn't take back.)
Carl:
I've got a customer that wants to try your shock set-up. If it doesn't work, can I return it for a full refund, since it is a "new" "untested" product, or is he/me stuck with it?
#63
Under the Lift
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
As always, Bill, your concerns are carefully worded and reasonable. Always welcome. Yes, we have addressed the rotation of the pin, and taken the complete mechanics of the system into consideration.
Like I said to Sean, I have not shown pictures of the bottom, the rear, and the inside of that mount. Questions and concerns formed on such little information as I have provided are reasonable. But hard absolute "I know what will happen" comments are just a joke with so little data.
It way ease your mind to know that the polyurethane bushing is not going to take the abrasion of the turning pin. There is a steel sleeve inside the polyurethane that will be in contact with the pin. This design is identical to the bottom of a Koni, Boge, or Bilstein. If you look at the bottom of the rear shock, you will see that the rubber is lined on the inside with a steel sleeve, and the pin turns in that sleeve. Same here. Only instead of having so much shore A 60 rubber between pin and shock bottom, we have a lesser section of shore C 55 (equivalent to a Shore A 110) polyurethane.
Let me drive it, and lets see. My race schedule is already published, it is here:
http://www.928motorsports.com/2012track.php
Anyone is welcome to come and look and watch at these events. Do call before making the trip to make sure we will be there. I know the April 21-22 race at the Autobahn is "on the bubble" over here and we may scratch that race.
Bill, thank you for your comments. Never a problem.
Like I said to Sean, I have not shown pictures of the bottom, the rear, and the inside of that mount. Questions and concerns formed on such little information as I have provided are reasonable. But hard absolute "I know what will happen" comments are just a joke with so little data.
It way ease your mind to know that the polyurethane bushing is not going to take the abrasion of the turning pin. There is a steel sleeve inside the polyurethane that will be in contact with the pin. This design is identical to the bottom of a Koni, Boge, or Bilstein. If you look at the bottom of the rear shock, you will see that the rubber is lined on the inside with a steel sleeve, and the pin turns in that sleeve. Same here. Only instead of having so much shore A 60 rubber between pin and shock bottom, we have a lesser section of shore C 55 (equivalent to a Shore A 110) polyurethane.
Let me drive it, and lets see. My race schedule is already published, it is here:
http://www.928motorsports.com/2012track.php
Anyone is welcome to come and look and watch at these events. Do call before making the trip to make sure we will be there. I know the April 21-22 race at the Autobahn is "on the bubble" over here and we may scratch that race.
Bill, thank you for your comments. Never a problem.
What you are doing, offering this before field testing so as to allow early adopters to jump in, isn't a completely unheard of practice, but I think since you admit you haven't tested this under real world conditions, you should be VERY clear upfront that this is an alpha (or maybe beta) prototype and spell out exactly what you will and will not do in terms of returns and upgrades. If you have already set this out in some boilerplate policy on your website, then please link to it. You came in and offered this as a new product, but only later clarified that you haven't field tested it yet. I think a lot of the consternation and inflamed responses are a result of that.
When we did beta testing of new hardware products in the computer industry, we sent engineering samples out for free. However, they were to be returned. You don't want engineering samples floating around on the open market. You might want to consider a variation on that, providing some substantial discount for a few early adopters who agree to install it immediately and provide some concerted testing and feedback, or sending a few samples out free with the understanding they must be purchased or returned at the end of the testing period. It's just a bit unusual to sell this sophisticated kind of new product before any field testing.
#64
Rennlist Member
We know you have to butt in everywhere, but spare me the advise. Porsche came up with these figures for the Nurburgring. Given that the car spends most of the time there, I am happy to go with that. Moreover, I did two seasons on 800/550 and the car was way too soft...
Here ended the rant...
P.S. My Leda 2-way adjustable have been valved to handle the springs...
#65
Former Sponsor
Sean, thank you for your concern. But an opinion that is fully formed based on what pictures I posted is at best, a guess. I did not (deliberately) post pictures of the bottom, the inside, or the back of that shock mount, did I? So you have at best an incomplete understanding of what we have done to hold that shock mount still.
To be clearer with my question....you are saying that there is more to this mount than you are showing in the picture? There's more than a perfectly cylindrical inner metal sleeve, a perfectly cylindrical urethane bushing, and the outer housing that has the tab that goes over and registers on the control arm?
There's something else on the bottom that does some mystery function?
#66
Former Sponsor
Mark,
We know you have to butt in everywhere, but spare me the advise. Porsche came up with these figures for the Nurburgring. Given that the car spends most of the time there, I am happy to go with that. Moreover, I did two seasons on 800/550 and the car was way too soft...
Here ended the rant...
P.S. My Leda 2-way adjustable have been valved to handle the springs...
We know you have to butt in everywhere, but spare me the advise. Porsche came up with these figures for the Nurburgring. Given that the car spends most of the time there, I am happy to go with that. Moreover, I did two seasons on 800/550 and the car was way too soft...
Here ended the rant...
P.S. My Leda 2-way adjustable have been valved to handle the springs...
"Smooth" generally requires more spring rate, so that makes sense you would be able to run stiffer springs.
#67
Developer
Thread Starter
Look, I've been kind enough to help people get "past" problems with Carl's stuff, by selling them the "correct" pieces, at my own cost (front upper control arms, made for racing, that Carl sold to a total street guy and wouldn't take back.)
.
#68
Developer
Thread Starter
Bill,
Sooner or later nearly every one of my new product threads gets off the product and down to my business model. This one just did.
I appreciate your input, but would rather discuss the product than my business model, please. I am in a niche of a niche. To say the 928 is a niche market for parts is an understantement, and I am in a very small niche of that - performance products. I sell very few OEM parts as a service to my good customers, but I let the 928 Intl's, the 928 Specialists. and Roger hammer out the volumes of OEM parts.
I fund my own R&D, never asking a pre-buy or a group by. I have to eat my own bad designs when they happen, or good designs that do not sell. Its a niche of a niche, and the 928 international business model or the DR or the Roger business model does not work here.
Yet - I have outlasted DEVEK and 928 Developments, and I have over 300 different SKU's to offer, up from 1 when I started in 2000. Not all our SKU's are mine - some I just found (like Mechanics Service Covers, for example), but still, if you stop in to tour our facility you would be amazed at the specialty parts we stock.
I am celebrating our 12th year in this little niche, and celebrating a 100% satisfactiion rating over 11 years on eBay. See for yourself, we don't rip anybody off.
Link: http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAP...ab=AllFeedback
If you can do several thousand transactions spanning 11 years with John Q Public, and satisfy all their demands - you must be doing something right.
So I am sorry if I don't apologize for my business model. It works for me. I've said this now at least three times in this thread: This is a posting to tell you about a NEW item. It is new, and it says NEW on the thread title. Some want every new cell phone/gadget/thingee thing the moment they come out. Some would rather wait to see if those who buy in early are happy before they buy in too.
I get that. I plan for that. It's OK.
Sooner or later nearly every one of my new product threads gets off the product and down to my business model. This one just did.
I appreciate your input, but would rather discuss the product than my business model, please. I am in a niche of a niche. To say the 928 is a niche market for parts is an understantement, and I am in a very small niche of that - performance products. I sell very few OEM parts as a service to my good customers, but I let the 928 Intl's, the 928 Specialists. and Roger hammer out the volumes of OEM parts.
I fund my own R&D, never asking a pre-buy or a group by. I have to eat my own bad designs when they happen, or good designs that do not sell. Its a niche of a niche, and the 928 international business model or the DR or the Roger business model does not work here.
Yet - I have outlasted DEVEK and 928 Developments, and I have over 300 different SKU's to offer, up from 1 when I started in 2000. Not all our SKU's are mine - some I just found (like Mechanics Service Covers, for example), but still, if you stop in to tour our facility you would be amazed at the specialty parts we stock.
I am celebrating our 12th year in this little niche, and celebrating a 100% satisfactiion rating over 11 years on eBay. See for yourself, we don't rip anybody off.
Link: http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAP...ab=AllFeedback
If you can do several thousand transactions spanning 11 years with John Q Public, and satisfy all their demands - you must be doing something right.
So I am sorry if I don't apologize for my business model. It works for me. I've said this now at least three times in this thread: This is a posting to tell you about a NEW item. It is new, and it says NEW on the thread title. Some want every new cell phone/gadget/thingee thing the moment they come out. Some would rather wait to see if those who buy in early are happy before they buy in too.
I get that. I plan for that. It's OK.
#69
Nordschleife Master
OT - but at least one shop here in Australia will re-valve Koni shocks (and has done for at least a couple of 928 owners).
#70
Developer
Thread Starter
if you made a part that was exactly like the stock shock, as an incert that then mounted, universally to any of the major shocks, you would have a home run. basically, lap off the stock shock and make that part. once its installed, it would never have to be removed and work just like stock as far as the lower control arm config
You left out the parts where it would have to fit every shock made, sell for $1, and have a lifetime warranty. :-)
Perhaps someone else can make that part for you. Perhaps you can. It won't be me.
But what I HAVE done is pretty close... these mounts will allow the fitment of any competition shock (of the right length) that have 1/2" spherical rod ends for mounts.
BTW: next we will be offering a top-end shock with a remote reservoir. They will likely be Penske's as they have been very helpful in developing a shock with me for the 928 application.
Then this set-up will be the "middle" competition setup.
We will still have the Konis, of course, but we will be able to offer the aluminum PRO shocks here and then the aluminum Penske shocks with remote reservoir.
#71
Rennlist Member
Mark,
We know you have to butt in everywhere, but spare me the advise. Porsche came up with these figures for the Nurburgring. Given that the car spends most of the time there, I am happy to go with that. Moreover, I did two seasons on 800/550 and the car was way too soft...
Here ended the rant...
P.S. My Leda 2-way adjustable have been valved to handle the springs...
We know you have to butt in everywhere, but spare me the advise. Porsche came up with these figures for the Nurburgring. Given that the car spends most of the time there, I am happy to go with that. Moreover, I did two seasons on 800/550 and the car was way too soft...
Here ended the rant...
P.S. My Leda 2-way adjustable have been valved to handle the springs...
I dont know the ring, other than what i have seen on the incar footage. it is very smooth and certanly that is a reason to stiffen things up a bit.
now, as far as me buttting in , get used to it. its a discussion board.
btw, if you have footage from your Brands Hatch race, post it so i can see what your talking about. if you noticed, we have some smooth and fast tracks here , like thunderhill and you can see even dennis' set up there and smooth Laguna being a huge issue for him. he kept on adding things that were supposed to make him faster and all it did was slow him down. (locking diff, heavy springs, etc) he runs 10 seconds slower a lap, and it looks like he is driving 10 seconds faster a lap. its not him, its the set up and he is and has chnaged things since then.
a lot of race teams have gone softer over the years. it can make the cars handle better. but, you are right , it can be all relative. However, i try not to re invent the wheel. when i found out how fast mark was running, i tried to do what he did and then , try to improve from there , since i didnt have the Hp he did.
Mark,
You left out the parts where it would have to fit every shock made, sell for $1, and have a lifetime warranty. :-)
Perhaps someone else can make that part for you. Perhaps you can. It won't be me.
But what I HAVE done is pretty close... these mounts will allow the fitment of any competition shock (of the right length) that have 1/2" spherical rod ends for mounts.
BTW: next we will be offering a top-end shock with a remote reservoir. They will likely be Penske's as they have been very helpful in developing a shock with me for the 928 application.
Then this set-up will be the "middle" competition setup.
We will still have the Konis, of course, but we will be able to offer the aluminum PRO shocks here and then the aluminum Penske shocks with remote reservoir.
You left out the parts where it would have to fit every shock made, sell for $1, and have a lifetime warranty. :-)
Perhaps someone else can make that part for you. Perhaps you can. It won't be me.
But what I HAVE done is pretty close... these mounts will allow the fitment of any competition shock (of the right length) that have 1/2" spherical rod ends for mounts.
BTW: next we will be offering a top-end shock with a remote reservoir. They will likely be Penske's as they have been very helpful in developing a shock with me for the 928 application.
Then this set-up will be the "middle" competition setup.
We will still have the Konis, of course, but we will be able to offer the aluminum PRO shocks here and then the aluminum Penske shocks with remote reservoir.
#73
Developer
Thread Starter
Test Results
This PRO Competition Suspension Package has now had two race weekends on it, 8 race sessions, each about 30 minutes in length. About 4 hours of racing.
Post-race inspection shows the kit is performing as intended, and the results in the car were fantastic. There are no issues with clanking, noise, loose fittings, or anything. Ride height was easily adjustable and was changed several times during these weekends.
Additionally, we took the springs in and out several times to adjust the spring rates as we pleased and to inspect the units, and found that to be simple, taking about 15 minutes a corner to remove and replace the coil springs.
I have a very nice HQ video up so you can ride along at Putnam Park during the GTS (German Touring Sedan) race and watch and listen. Turn your speakers up! :-)
Post-race inspection shows the kit is performing as intended, and the results in the car were fantastic. There are no issues with clanking, noise, loose fittings, or anything. Ride height was easily adjustable and was changed several times during these weekends.
Additionally, we took the springs in and out several times to adjust the spring rates as we pleased and to inspect the units, and found that to be simple, taking about 15 minutes a corner to remove and replace the coil springs.
I have a very nice HQ video up so you can ride along at Putnam Park during the GTS (German Touring Sedan) race and watch and listen. Turn your speakers up! :-)
#74
Rennlist Member
Thanks for the vid Carl. I enjoied it very much. I don't get to do enough of that myself so it is nice when you guys post these things. Looks like the car performed well. He held some lines that I didnt think he was going to make. Also looks like he feasted on BMW's all day.