Jerry Feather

Thanks Everyone for the interest and encouragement. I see that my statement about SF 12 is probably misleading. What I intend to bring is the only set that I have so far been able to get to fit in my GTS4, and only as described above. Later today I plan to take at least one of "these ones" down to Doug's place and get him to help me develop a pattern for the sound material I plan to use. If that works, then what I'll be bringing to SF is just this pair for show and tell.

When I get back from SF I plan to work on the brackets, or more so the bracket procedure so that I can make them in sets of 5 or 6 in a batch. Then I'll be putting some time in to make about 4 or 5 sets of prototypes to see how thet are going to work in the field. Those are the ones that I expect to have out before Thanksgiving.

My most recent thought is that while these are being tested in the field I will have some non production time to continue the GT/S4 liner development, and maybe then be able to try to fill orders as they come up rather than trying to fill all the GTS needs before I try to finish up the GT/S4 ones. Does that make sense?

You may recall that the form for the inner half of these liners is suitable for all of them, but the form for the outer half needs to be changable from the GTS to the earlier ones; and I have done that by making the outer half form work with a fairly simple change of the part for the wheel arch that is different--the rest of the form will stay the same, I am pretty sure.

You may also recall that I already have most of the S4 brackets developed, all but one of some sort to hold the upper rear of the right side inner half. That's probably what I'll be working on while the field testing is going on with the GTS liners, that, and final fitting in my S4.

Finally, there is another aspect of this project that I have to accomplish and that is to fabricate some tooling that I think will be necessary for locating many of the mounting holes for these liners since with the probable variance in the way these seem to want to fit, I don't think I can locate and predrill the holes before shipping. That means you will have to locate the holes yourself; so I need to provide some kind of tooling that I can include in each kit for you to do that with. I then need to redraft the mounting instructions to explain how all of this needs to be accomplished.

So, Randy, I wont quite be in a position to take your money just yet.

Hilton

Jerry, my thought is you're over-designing the product at this stage.

Given most of the people here who are potential customers do our own wrenching, or pay *good* mechanics, I'd say you can just skip the extra tooling, and even not worry about additional sound insulation, leaving those aspects up to the installer to decide/do.

I think all of us here could figure out a way to locate the holes for the bracketry (I'm guessing the brackets are similar to the factory ones that hold the rear spray shields to the bumper stanchions).

What does concern me is things like how well the material will cope with heat/vibration and what their longevity will be like. Do you have any plans to put months/miles on a test car somewhere like Arizona?

Jerry Feather

Hi Hilton. First of all I have found over the years that being good at wrenching and at mechanic'n does not make one a good fabricator. I can however surmise that there very well are many or even most of you in this market who might very well be able to figure out just how to locate and drill some holes. But that is only "most."

My problem is, as a vendor, that I have to develop this project so it is usable in the way intended, and without shortcuts because of inability to cope with the needed tasks, and must therefore aim the product at the "bottom of the class" so to say rather than the top or even the middle and let the bottom go pound sand.

On the other hand I am curious as to how you for example, might locate and accurately drill the four holes in the inner half of one of my liners to match the four holes in the outside of the frame along the inboard surface of the inside of the GTS wheel well. Maybe I'll be surprised, and pleased to learn how you might go about that.

As to testing in Arizona--I have put enough of the ABS plastic in my ovens to know just about how well it will hold up to almost 250 degrees F. On the other hand, I can also tell from advise from the plastic supplier, that the biggest problem with this material is going to be from situations where it is subjected to something like 20 below where it becomes susceptable to shattering. I don't intend to test either situation, but I don't intend to guaranty these in respect to either condition either.

Now, Hilton, please describe you method of locating the holes.

Rich9928p

I'll volunteer to do the testing in Arizona ..... My GTS is in need of new rear fender liners and I'm sure next summer will be as hot as the last - I hope not 250 F though.

Speedtoys

Ship one out. He'll show you.

Seriously...

Cant hurt to start getting some more eyes..that last few percent you'll probly never solve _really well_.

Heck..Id use a stud finder up against the liner over the mount to locate where it -is- and go from there.

Hilton

Well who can resist a passive-aggressive challenge like that?

Without an actual liner to establish a suitable process, I'll just have to guess.

Something simple yet effective could be a small ball of blu-tack or plasticine pushed into the mounting hole on the car, to hold the non-adhesive side of a small round sticker. Then test-fit the liner and push against the sticker to stick the paper dot onto the liner. Repeat a few times until happy with the location (i.e. three or more stickers in the same spot within tolerance of each other - which I'd guesstimate at +/- 5mm, without going to the garage and measuring the washer size on the two sizes of factory panel screws).

Once one hole is located to a comfortable degree of accuracy for drilling, I'd drill it and mount a small stud in that frame-hole to locate the liner on for subsequent test-fits to make sure the other holes' locations are accurate relative to the first.

There are other more "engineering" alternatives like triangulation and measuring, but for something as relatively imprecise as a wheel well liner, I'd probably go with the stickers.

(I'm forever peeling small sticky-backed jewels or paper dots off my feet.. I have two young daughters there are other alternatives for marking like paint etc.).

Rob Edwards

Jerry, FWIW, there will be another GTS4 several feet up in the air at SF12 that would provide another convenient test fitting opportunity, if you're so inclined. The wheelwells and all mounting points will be clean.

ReDesign by FEATHER

Thanks guys. And thank you Hilton. I am pleased that you would accept my little challenge; and I am pleased with what you came up with. It is somewhat similar to my first thought on this problem. Mine was to machine a little shallow pointed plug that could be pushed into one of the holes in the frame and then when the inner liner half is put into place it could be pushed inward firmly against the point thus marking where to drill. Then it could be move to another location and the same could be done. All the four holes could be marked in this manner.

Now that I think again about it and compare it with what I have since thought about doing, I think that may still be the better approach. In fact, there may be some commercial kind of devise that I could buy that would do the same thing. The problem is that it must be pretty shallow and still fairly pointy.

That too--the need to be shallow--is the problem with your idea. With the stickers needing to be free of the liner until the liner is perfectly in place cannot be done since the liner inner half is first pressed pretty firmly up against the frame member before it is then pushed upward to engage the bottom inner u-flange over the frame bottom flange, and then forced foreward some to be sure it is correctly positioned. That activity is going to be dragging the sticker(s) with it, I think.

What I have recently been thinking about doing is simply fabricate a simple hole template that the user can first place over the frame member to see how the holes match with the frame holes, and then install the liner inner half and use the template placed over the liner in the same position to locate the holes. Fairly simple, but it takes a little fabrication and explanation about how to adjust for the difference with and without the liner in place. The key to position is going to be the rear of the aluminum crossmember, and that too has some variace, based on the slots for mounting holes that I see in a couple of spares I have around here. That's why it will have to be "calibrated" first without the liner in place to see that at least fore and aft the holes are correct. They will be a little off vertically because of the thickness of the liner material that it will be up against when actually locating the holes.

This devise, if I use it will be simply a small sheet of aluminum or maybe something else with an adjustable "T" sort of stop at one point on the bottom edge to locate it against the crossmember. I expect I can make about 10 or 12 of them at one time from material cut to size and then gang drill them all. I haven't figured out the little T stop yet, but my brain is still working on that.

My Friend Doug and I worked this evening on some of the sound deadening material and we glued one piece of it in place. Neither he nor I are pleased with the result, but I had the forethought to grind some of the closed cell foam coupler off in the spot I was pretty sure would be tight, so when I brounght it home I tried it in the car and I think it fits. That is a big relief because I wont have to be changing the form again over this. We are going to try a different approach to this material pattern, but probalby not tomorrow because I have a couple of trials tomorrow and will need to get my stuff together for the trip since I am leaving Thursday morning for SF. Doug and I both think that with to correct wedging of this material it will install very nicely. At SF you can see this first try at one piece of it, but the final I am sure will look a lot better.

Jerry Feather

Thanks, and a hearty welcome to you. I see you just joined yesterday. You are going to find this Forum very interesting. How about introducing yourself and telling us about yourself, unless you already did and I missed it.

Randy V

There will be another GTS at SF, having a remote entry system installed.

On the ground where it's easy to get to.

With Bloody Marys and frosty Pacifico beer served from the rear hatch bar.

MFranke

On locating the holes: can you apply a trick used in woodworking for lining up dowel hole drill locations? Would installing a small marking or punch/scoring insert to the hole allow you to press up the liner to fit and mark the spots on the liner to later drill?

Mark
88' S4

PHIL928

bot

PHIL928

bot attack going on here

ReDesign by FEATHER

Well as you can see, I have survived the "attack." In fact I have been pretty busy trying to finalize the details of this project so I can get the promised few prototype sets out in the field by around Thanksgiving. I think I am on track for that, but I am never sure because, as you can surely tell by now, I usually overestimate what I can ever accomplish in a given period of time.

Right now I have one set of the four or five Prototype sets blown, trimmed, doubled and drilled ready for installation of the sound material. I have also pretty well finalized the sound material pattern(s) for the inner half and the outer half. Actually I think I will use just one pattern for both, so it will be doing double duty. My trim guy, Doug Corson, is out of his shop today where I left the material so I will have to wait until tomorrow afternoon to go there and cut the roll of material up into workable pieces, then I can bring them home and trim them out according to the patterns, in my band saw. Then I have to use my disc grinder/sander to thin the material down in the areas that need it.

Over the last couple of days I finally figured out what to do about one of the tools that will need to go with a set of these liners and that is a tool to use to pull the connecting clips out with so that they don't break off. Since the clips will have to withstand some repetitive installations and removals, both in the original fitting /installation process and later periodically for whatever reasons, I found it advisable to make a tool to use for this so I wont have to be sending everyone replacement clips so often.

What I came up with is a $3 pair of needle nose pliers at HF that I first cut the nose off of leaving about an inch of the jaws, then I sculpted the jaws in my mill and then the belt sander to fashion the nose into double hooks that really work great to pull the clip centers and the whole clip when they need to come out. I will be including a set with each kit; or did I already say that?

I have also accumulated some other tooling to go with these liners including a small quarter inch ratchet and an extended 8mm socket which is what I have found is the most useful in taking out what is in the car originally, if anything, and then installing these new liners.

I will also be including a couple of drill bits, a quarter inch one and a 5/16 inch one for the installer to use to drill some holes that the installer is going to have to locate and then drill. To go along with that I still have to devise some hole locaters since a few of the holes that will need to be drilled are blind in that they have to be drilled into locations that are first covered up with the liner. I'm going to make some of those out of strips of stainless steel and include one in each kit.

Today I am going to work on the final refinements in the four major GTS mounting brackets and try to fab enough of those for the prototypes and maybe the first five or so of the production run that I hope to start right after I get the first 4 out in the field.

I don't really have a lot of fear about the field testing except for the ability of the users to be able to install them. Once they are in and if they fit all the cars without major issues that we cannot resolve over the phone, I don't anticipate any significant flaw in the whole design that will be any kind of setback.

I guess that the only concern that I actually have is that I think my design has the top of the liners about a half inch to an inch less tall than the original liners, partly because of the need for the extra space to use my mounting system, but mainly based on my original guestimate of how tall the originals are which I made before I got a set to work with from Tony77, and I had already pretty much finalized that aspect of the forms. What that may mean is that if someone firmly bottoms out their car's rear suspension I am not too sure that doing so will not destroy these liners. There will not be any guarantee about that with these.

Oh, I keep forgetting that I still need to devise another kind of hole locater for the four holes in the frame rail on the inboard surface of the wheelwell. I still haven't totally figured that one out yet, but will maybe work on that as as soon as I get out to the shop. It snowed about 2 inches last night so I am kind of waiting for it to warm up a bit before I go out; and that is why I am taking this time to make this progress report.

Alan

Jerry - solid progress - seems like its getting close (well closer anyway)

I have a feeling that when done this will be you best seller yet - (needs to be I know - lots of time invested). Thanks for sticking with it ...

Alan