911 values vs 928 amazes me
08-10-2010, 10:26 PM
#61
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I still own a 944S, you don't have to tell me what great cars they are. I was simply filling in the blanks.
Yes stock for stock the 951 was a step behind the 928. The big difference is for the price difference the 951 can be made to out perform a stock 928. Yea yea, you'll come back with XYZ mods you can do to the 928....at this point it comes down to who has the bigger pocket book
Did the Porsche factory short change the 928 when it comes to performance? You bet, they also neutered the 944.
Yes stock for stock the 951 was a step behind the 928. The big difference is for the price difference the 951 can be made to out perform a stock 928. Yea yea, you'll come back with XYZ mods you can do to the 928....at this point it comes down to who has the bigger pocket book
Did the Porsche factory short change the 928 when it comes to performance? You bet, they also neutered the 944.
08-10-2010, 10:31 PM
#63
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Some of their "top dogs" have figured out how to squeeze 600rwhp out of that four banger, in a car that is 500lbs lighter than a stock 32V 928.
https://rennlist.com/forums/944-turb...whp-951-a.html
Why am I always the one defending the 951 here?
https://rennlist.com/forums/944-turb...whp-951-a.html
Why am I always the one defending the 951 here?
08-10-2010, 10:38 PM
#64
Race Car
Some of their "top dogs" have figured out how to squeeze 600rwhp out of that four banger, in a car that is 500lbs lighter than a stock 32V 928.
https://rennlist.com/forums/944-turb...whp-951-a.html
Why am I always the one defending the 951 here?
https://rennlist.com/forums/944-turb...whp-951-a.html
Why am I always the one defending the 951 here?
08-10-2010, 11:14 PM
#65
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Go drive a stock 89 944 Turbo from 0-60 and then drive a 89 928 S4 or heck any other 928 for that matter from 0-60 and you will understand.
When I bought my 90 GT from Jarrod Wise I drove up to look at the car with my 88 944 Turbo S. He made comments on how the 90 GT was faster than the 944 Turbo so I let him drive my 944 Turbo while I test drove the 90 GT. When we both got back to his house he said the 944 Turbo was faster. He said there was a place he did runs to see how fast he could accelerate and the 944 Turbo beat the 90 GT.
I had both the 88 944 Turbo S and the 90GT for a while. 3 times I took both the 944 and the 928 to our local PCA autocross that is at a 1.2 mile track not a parking lot. Those three events I got FTD in the 944 Turbo and Second fastest time in the 90GT with the 944 Turbo being from 1 to 2 seconds faster than the 90GT.
So, quote all the numbers from books and magazines all you want, there is a big difference between bench racing and sitting behind the wheel.
Interesting enough my Stock Boxster S had a factory 0-60 very close to the 90GT and 944 Turbo S. It felt faster than the 90GT, but slower than the 944 Turbo 0-60, however it felt like a dog above 60 and was down right scary above 120. Above 120 the 944 Turbo felt like you were riding in a single engine plane, the 90GT felt like you were in a jet.
When I bought my 90 GT from Jarrod Wise I drove up to look at the car with my 88 944 Turbo S. He made comments on how the 90 GT was faster than the 944 Turbo so I let him drive my 944 Turbo while I test drove the 90 GT. When we both got back to his house he said the 944 Turbo was faster. He said there was a place he did runs to see how fast he could accelerate and the 944 Turbo beat the 90 GT.
I had both the 88 944 Turbo S and the 90GT for a while. 3 times I took both the 944 and the 928 to our local PCA autocross that is at a 1.2 mile track not a parking lot. Those three events I got FTD in the 944 Turbo and Second fastest time in the 90GT with the 944 Turbo being from 1 to 2 seconds faster than the 90GT.
So, quote all the numbers from books and magazines all you want, there is a big difference between bench racing and sitting behind the wheel.
Interesting enough my Stock Boxster S had a factory 0-60 very close to the 90GT and 944 Turbo S. It felt faster than the 90GT, but slower than the 944 Turbo 0-60, however it felt like a dog above 60 and was down right scary above 120. Above 120 the 944 Turbo felt like you were riding in a single engine plane, the 90GT felt like you were in a jet.
As I recall, your 944 Turbo was a little enhanced - about 300rwhp IIRC. But yes, it indeed was both faster at my reference point AND felt like it was pulling much harder at that point. Like being shot out of a rubber band was how I described the sensation, you just kept accelerating and accelerating...The 944 isn't the quality and substance of car that the 928 is, but I can certainly see why so many people love them. That Turbo was a blast to drive. If I had the money and room, I'd definitely like to have one in my stable.
08-10-2010, 11:21 PM
#66
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I have to admit, turbo's are addictive. My Speed3 is a blast to drive, especially when the engine RPM's are in the sweet spot. I can certainly see why so many love the 944's and 911 turbos.
Back on topic, one thing I have noticed is that 911 prices have been dropping faster over the past 8 months and many are starting to fall into the same price ranges as the 928. I realize they're not equal but until now they have always maintained a higher price. I think the 997 is convincing many owners to trade up to a newer car.
Back on topic, one thing I have noticed is that 911 prices have been dropping faster over the past 8 months and many are starting to fall into the same price ranges as the 928. I realize they're not equal but until now they have always maintained a higher price. I think the 997 is convincing many owners to trade up to a newer car.
08-10-2010, 11:25 PM
#67
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I have to admit, turbo's are addictive. My Speed3 is a blast to drive, especially when the engine RPM's are in the sweet spot. I can certainly see why so many love the 944's and 911 turbos.
Back on topic, one thing I have noticed is that 911 prices have been dropping faster over the past 8 months and many are starting to fall into the same price ranges as the 928. I realize they're not equal but until now they have always maintained a higher price. I think the 997 is convincing many owners to trade up to a newer car.
Back on topic, one thing I have noticed is that 911 prices have been dropping faster over the past 8 months and many are starting to fall into the same price ranges as the 928. I realize they're not equal but until now they have always maintained a higher price. I think the 997 is convincing many owners to trade up to a newer car.
08-10-2010, 11:28 PM
#68
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08-10-2010, 11:29 PM
#69
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996 prices have dropped dramatically already. Do search, even low mile cars aren't holding their values that well.
08-10-2010, 11:53 PM
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The resale on the water boxer 911s just plain sucks and for some very good reasons like no dry sump , intermediate shaft bearing issues and the vast majority were leased...basically rented and large numbers which had unrealistic residual values (based on PRIOR resale values) being turned back in. Porsche made the decision to not just make speciality sports cars and enter the world of daily drivers. That tends to take the special out of special....
08-10-2010, 11:59 PM
#71
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The resale on the water boxer 911s just plain sucks and for some very good reasons like no dry sump , intermediate shaft bearing issues and the vast majority were leased...basically rented and large numbers which had unrealistic residual values (based on PRIOR resale values) being turned back in. Porsche made the decision to not just make speciality sports cars and enter the world of daily drivers. That tends to take the special out of special....
https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...-camshaft.html
08-11-2010, 12:03 AM
#72
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Jim,
That might be a little harsh. A '87 928 is still likely to be worth more than most cars from then in similar condition. True, they've also fallen farther than most, but It costs more to buy a runner S4 than say a Buick from the same era (I know it'll cost more to keep it running also).
As for restoration costs, what does that have to do with what they sell for or their depreciation rate going forward? I know that contributed to them falling so far, but I would guess that this damage is done.
Finally, I don't think that Greg and his son's resto should be used as a baseline for comparison for most buyers. He's a different class of owner.
That might be a little harsh. A '87 928 is still likely to be worth more than most cars from then in similar condition. True, they've also fallen farther than most, but It costs more to buy a runner S4 than say a Buick from the same era (I know it'll cost more to keep it running also).
As for restoration costs, what does that have to do with what they sell for or their depreciation rate going forward? I know that contributed to them falling so far, but I would guess that this damage is done.
Finally, I don't think that Greg and his son's resto should be used as a baseline for comparison for most buyers. He's a different class of owner.
08-11-2010, 12:31 AM
#73
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I agree with you, for the most part. However, can you name a car from the same era as the 928 that is worth more than a 928 today because replacement parts are cheaper or they are easier to work on? There are a lot that are worth less, and most of those worth more are from the more exotic brands (F, L, B, RR, AM) . For the most part, the late 70's to early 90's is a pretty unloved period of automotive history today.
O K an 87 911 is now worth 12-18 k in decent shape about twice what most 928s of that vintage will bring. Somewhat more than an 87 T-bird or Buick but the 928 cost far far more to begin with. For years I said the S-4 SHOULD be worth $5,000 more than an early car......that still holds true. Restoration costs or simply keeping it running have a real imact on the value. Remember the $10,000 away from having a $5,000 car. And yes Greg is a different class owner ! He actually can afford a 928
08-11-2010, 09:26 AM
#74
Drifting
Yes stock for stock the 951 was a step behind the 928. The big difference is for the price difference the 951 can be made to out perform a stock 928. Yea yea, you'll come back with XYZ mods you can do to the 928....at this point it comes down to who has the bigger pocket book
Apples and oranges. You are comparing mods on a force fed type engine to a stock N/A engine. I'll take tuomov's Kuhn built TT 928 in this comparison!
Bottom line a nicely specced 928 was always better from the factory than its siblings, not just in speed, but in design quality, interior, and looks. Thr reason why the price is where it is was explained in my first post.
08-11-2010, 09:58 AM
#75
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How? When choosing between the two cars this is a major factor that sways a lot of people towards the 951.
No kidding, that's the point.
What are you even trying to get at here? Or just bored and keeping the discussion going?
No kidding, that's the point.
What are you even trying to get at here? Or just bored and keeping the discussion going?