COLD AIR INTAKE NEXT LEVEL OF PERFORMANCE?
10-05-2010, 01:29 AM
#91
Burning Brakes
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Yep, we have a company built around the concept. The lastest eRAM does have near 4000watts, and is built on DC brushless motor technology (like the EDFs you show on the video). This system does require a separate set of small odessy-like batteries for a 24volt system. There is a new DC brushless system that is near 1000watts, near the same as the previous-current eRAM, that runs on DC brushless and is much more efficient.
It is very difficult to create substantial pressure with an axial flow fan, but it is absolulely possible. Much of the gains of the eRAM were due to reducing pressure drops in the intake air box, with some pressurization of the airbox itself or intake tube if it is sealed.
Mark
It is very difficult to create substantial pressure with an axial flow fan, but it is absolulely possible. Much of the gains of the eRAM were due to reducing pressure drops in the intake air box, with some pressurization of the airbox itself or intake tube if it is sealed.
Mark
They are big fans for edf,125 to 127mm area(close to 5")
These can put out up to 10,000 watts!!!!
http://www.xtremepowersystems.net/dynamax.php
Would be cool just to try one to see how it works and if it did work ok then go for the other side and have 20,000watts.
5 horse from the E-ram at 1,000 watts? or was it back to back units for 5hp?
If possible to reach the 20,000 watts with the external batteries what would 20,000 watts be worth in HP on a larger motor like a V8?
Motor power rating looks to be as follows with the different battery packs:
Power ratings:
10S - 22,500 RPMs, 11+ pounds of thrust, 82A
12S - 26,800 RPMs, 15+ pounds of thrust, 109A
15S - 30,500 RPMs, 21+ pounds of thrust, 150A
16S - 31,700 RPMs, 24+ pounds of thrust, 168A
Last edited by inactiveuser1; 10-05-2010 at 01:56 AM.
10-05-2010, 11:08 AM
#92
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yep, we have looked at those, very closely. the biggest problem is that the larger diameter are terrible for building pressure, even though they have HUGE thrust numbers. even a 747 jumbo jet engine (real airliner) only has a less than 1psi pressure change from front of the engine to rear. 
anyway, the 4000watt unit we are using now is a ducted fan design from the edf world, and seems to be putting out enough pressure to help a larger V8. its an expensive system with a controller that only activates at WOT. a little work to get the contollers to work all out and have no mid range control. fulll power or off, in other words.
Ill have to check to see where we are, but we did a new Mustang on a dyno recently and it did pretty well.
Mark
anyway, the 4000watt unit we are using now is a ducted fan design from the edf world, and seems to be putting out enough pressure to help a larger V8. its an expensive system with a controller that only activates at WOT. a little work to get the contollers to work all out and have no mid range control. fulll power or off, in other words.
Ill have to check to see where we are, but we did a new Mustang on a dyno recently and it did pretty well.
Mark
Mark,if they are still working on to bring out that new system they should look into the older Dynamax fans from the turbine model as they are now converting those over with electric motor from Little Screamer but using the same style fans from the older turbines they may be 14?16? blades not sure but from the angled picture looks close to those numbers.
They are big fans for edf,125 to 127mm area(close to 5")
These can put out up to 10,000 watts!!!!
http://www.xtremepowersystems.net/dynamax.php
Would be cool just to try one to see how it works and if it did work ok then go for the other side and have 20,000watts.
5 horse from the E-ram at 1,000 watts? or was it back to back units for 5hp?
If possible to reach the 20,000 watts with the external batteries what would 20,000 watts be worth in HP on a larger motor like a V8?
Motor power rating looks to be as follows with the different battery packs:
Power ratings:
10S - 22,500 RPMs, 11+ pounds of thrust, 82A
12S - 26,800 RPMs, 15+ pounds of thrust, 109A
15S - 30,500 RPMs, 21+ pounds of thrust, 150A
16S - 31,700 RPMs, 24+ pounds of thrust, 168A
They are big fans for edf,125 to 127mm area(close to 5")
These can put out up to 10,000 watts!!!!
http://www.xtremepowersystems.net/dynamax.php
Would be cool just to try one to see how it works and if it did work ok then go for the other side and have 20,000watts.
5 horse from the E-ram at 1,000 watts? or was it back to back units for 5hp?
If possible to reach the 20,000 watts with the external batteries what would 20,000 watts be worth in HP on a larger motor like a V8?
Motor power rating looks to be as follows with the different battery packs:
Power ratings:
10S - 22,500 RPMs, 11+ pounds of thrust, 82A
12S - 26,800 RPMs, 15+ pounds of thrust, 109A
15S - 30,500 RPMs, 21+ pounds of thrust, 150A
16S - 31,700 RPMs, 24+ pounds of thrust, 168A
10-05-2010, 11:27 AM
#93
Burning Brakes
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yep, we have looked at those, very closely. the biggest problem is that the larger diameter are terrible for building pressure, even though they have HUGE thrust numbers. even a 747 jumbo jet engine (real airliner) only has a less than 1psi pressure change from front of the engine to rear.
anyway, the 4000watt unit we are using now is a ducted fan design from the edf world, and seems to be putting out enough pressure to help a larger V8. its an expensive system with a controller that only activates at WOT. a little work to get the contollers to work all out and have no mid range control. fulll power or off, in other words.
Ill have to check to see where we are, but we did a new Mustang on a dyno recently and it did pretty well.
Mark
anyway, the 4000watt unit we are using now is a ducted fan design from the edf world, and seems to be putting out enough pressure to help a larger V8. its an expensive system with a controller that only activates at WOT. a little work to get the contollers to work all out and have no mid range control. fulll power or off, in other words.
Ill have to check to see where we are, but we did a new Mustang on a dyno recently and it did pretty well.
Mark
when you did the Mustang was it one fan unit or did you run one unit each side?
How well is pretty well as in stock hp to what hp?
On the pressure if the fan has more thrust and is 5inches what size fans are you using now compared to before?Your saying bigger fans are worse arent the newer systems with larger fans? or did you only incease the motor size which if the motor is bigger which to get more amps the motor is going to be a bigger diameter which won't allow air flow to go by the motor as good.
So putting in larger amp motors the whole fan unit would have to be larger in size or it will be choked off.I thought Mike was going to a larger unit instead of the smaller one on the other design.
4000 watt is the standard for maybe 90mm to 100mm if using a weaker motor but guys that are building better faster planes are using more watts.You even said earlier the key to getting more power is the watts!!!
6500 to 10,000 watts in a 5inch unit with a coupler going down to 4inch will make more power than a 4inch unit with 4000 watts.You have to have a bigger fan and fan housing when using a bigger diameter eletric fan motor or air isnt going to get by!
Talking of a 747 or real planes are different they reduce pressure,nothing to do with the same as the electric fans.
Higher pressure first then 4 low pressure fans to reduce pressure in real plane engine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLc3x9-s0Eo
Last edited by inactiveuser1; 10-05-2010 at 06:39 PM.
10-05-2010, 01:17 PM
#94
Rennlist Member
Its been a long time since Ive done the calculations, but the larger the diameter, the harder it is for the fan to build pressure. I think the largest we want is around 90mm, and thats what we are trying now. blades close together, (i.e. more blades) is better and the air gap is pretty critical too.
sure, as you add power, you willl gain pressure and flow. since the flow to the engine doesnt change very much (as far as CFM, only varying with rpm) we try and find a sweetspot for which the fan can operate faster than stall for the pressure differential it is making. just before stall will be the greatest pressure, but there wouldnt be much flow. the trick is to get the speed and CFM of the fan, so high that it dwarfs the engine's requirement and gets close as possible to the near stall point where max static pressure is found.
Also, we dont want too large of a motor, because it takes time to ramp it up to top speed, especially in the 30,000rpm+ range. thrust is due to only three variables. power, diameter and eff. pressure is P= 4T/pi D^2, so only related to thrust and diameter as well.
sure, as you add power, you willl gain pressure and flow. since the flow to the engine doesnt change very much (as far as CFM, only varying with rpm) we try and find a sweetspot for which the fan can operate faster than stall for the pressure differential it is making. just before stall will be the greatest pressure, but there wouldnt be much flow. the trick is to get the speed and CFM of the fan, so high that it dwarfs the engine's requirement and gets close as possible to the near stall point where max static pressure is found.
Also, we dont want too large of a motor, because it takes time to ramp it up to top speed, especially in the 30,000rpm+ range. thrust is due to only three variables. power, diameter and eff. pressure is P= 4T/pi D^2, so only related to thrust and diameter as well.
Mark,
when you did the Mustang was it one fan unit or did you run one unit each side?
How well is pretty well as in stock hp to what hp?
On the pressure if the fan has more thrust and is 5inches but it is pushing into a cone or transition tube infront of it as in smaller diameter 3 1/2 or 4 inch wouldn't the pressure be building with the larger watts?
4000 watt is the standard for maybe 90mm but guys that are building better faster planes are using more watts.You even said earlier the key to getting more power is the watts.10,000 watts in a 5inch unit with a coupler going down to 4inch will make more power than a 4inch unit with 4000 watts.
when you did the Mustang was it one fan unit or did you run one unit each side?
How well is pretty well as in stock hp to what hp?
On the pressure if the fan has more thrust and is 5inches but it is pushing into a cone or transition tube infront of it as in smaller diameter 3 1/2 or 4 inch wouldn't the pressure be building with the larger watts?
4000 watt is the standard for maybe 90mm but guys that are building better faster planes are using more watts.You even said earlier the key to getting more power is the watts.10,000 watts in a 5inch unit with a coupler going down to 4inch will make more power than a 4inch unit with 4000 watts.
10-05-2010, 01:35 PM
#95
Burning Brakes
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Its been a long time since Ive done the calculations, but the larger the diameter, the harder it is for the fan to build pressure. I think the largest we want is around 90mm, and thats what we are trying now. blades close together, (i.e. more blades) is better and the air gap is pretty critical too.
sure, as you add power, you willl gain pressure and flow. since the flow to the engine doesnt change very much (as far as CFM, only varying with rpm) we try and find a sweetspot for which the fan can operate faster than stall for the pressure differential it is making. just before stall will be the greatest pressure, but there wouldnt be much flow. the trick is to get the speed and CFM of the fan, so high that it dwarfs the engine's requirement and gets close as possible to the near stall point where max static pressure is found.
Also, we dont want too large of a motor, because it takes time to ramp it up to top speed, especially in the 30,000rpm+ range. thrust is due to only three variables. power, diameter and eff. pressure is P= 4T/pi D^2, so only related to thrust and diameter as well.
sure, as you add power, you willl gain pressure and flow. since the flow to the engine doesnt change very much (as far as CFM, only varying with rpm) we try and find a sweetspot for which the fan can operate faster than stall for the pressure differential it is making. just before stall will be the greatest pressure, but there wouldnt be much flow. the trick is to get the speed and CFM of the fan, so high that it dwarfs the engine's requirement and gets close as possible to the near stall point where max static pressure is found.
Also, we dont want too large of a motor, because it takes time to ramp it up to top speed, especially in the 30,000rpm+ range. thrust is due to only three variables. power, diameter and eff. pressure is P= 4T/pi D^2, so only related to thrust and diameter as well.
http://www.xtremepowersystems.net/dynamax.php
Common air intake are 3 to 4inch so best with the 90mm motor for production but if doing a custom fit the more watts and bigger fans may benefit.With a big V8 not sure it will dwarf the engine requirements.After looking at the fans with motors,batteries controllers, chargers with balance for lipo batteries the cost is high.
With the bigger fans and poor traction of the car in drag use it may be a good thing for alittle delay on the fans ramping up.
Still would like to try one big unit out if I still have the car by then.
10-06-2010, 12:43 AM
#97
Rennlist Member
actually, the pressure section of the 747 is very similar. the compressor section is ALL about raising pressure , higher and higher with each compressor stage. we have an eram that is two erams in series, for a dual stage compressor. the 747 engine not only compresses, but neckes down to accelerate and further compress the air. the final stages after the burners, are basically like the "turbo", that drives the front section which is in the higher pressure side.
the engine produces thrust by mass flow, not pressure diff though. in the eRAM, we are trying ONLY to match the flow of the engine and raise pressure.
the fans in our cooling systems are a good example of why large diameter is the wrong direction after you at least accomodate the fan motor. large CFM air flow, terrible pressure. even if you necked it down.
we optimally would want a 3" fan, but the 3.5 to 4" seems to work with the ultra high powered motors, but 5" doesnt seem to make the pressure, even with a lot more power. lots of trade offs, thats why we do so much testing first to see the trade offs.
the engine produces thrust by mass flow, not pressure diff though. in the eRAM, we are trying ONLY to match the flow of the engine and raise pressure.
the fans in our cooling systems are a good example of why large diameter is the wrong direction after you at least accomodate the fan motor. large CFM air flow, terrible pressure. even if you necked it down.
we optimally would want a 3" fan, but the 3.5 to 4" seems to work with the ultra high powered motors, but 5" doesnt seem to make the pressure, even with a lot more power. lots of trade offs, thats why we do so much testing first to see the trade offs.
Mark,
You even said earlier the key to getting more power is the watts!!!
6500 to 10,000 watts in a 5inch unit with a coupler going down to 4inch will make more power than a 4inch unit with 4000 watts.You have to have a bigger fan and fan housing when using a bigger diameter eletric fan motor or air isnt going to get by!
Talking of a 747 or real planes are different they reduce pressure,nothing to do with the same as the electric fans.
Higher pressure first then 4 low pressure fans to reduce pressure in real plane engine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLc3x9-s0Eo
You even said earlier the key to getting more power is the watts!!!
6500 to 10,000 watts in a 5inch unit with a coupler going down to 4inch will make more power than a 4inch unit with 4000 watts.You have to have a bigger fan and fan housing when using a bigger diameter eletric fan motor or air isnt going to get by!
Talking of a 747 or real planes are different they reduce pressure,nothing to do with the same as the electric fans.
Higher pressure first then 4 low pressure fans to reduce pressure in real plane engine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLc3x9-s0Eo
10-06-2010, 01:04 AM
#98
Rennlist Member
Where could I find that cold Air intake? Link or website would be appreciated. Thank you, Tony
10-07-2010, 07:16 PM
#99
Burning Brakes
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actually, the pressure section of the 747 is very similar. the compressor section is ALL about raising pressure , higher and higher with each compressor stage. we have an eram that is two erams in series, for a dual stage compressor. the 747 engine not only compresses, but neckes down to accelerate and further compress the air. the final stages after the burners, are basically like the "turbo", that drives the front section which is in the higher pressure side.
the engine produces thrust by mass flow, not pressure diff though. in the eRAM, we are trying ONLY to match the flow of the engine and raise pressure.
the fans in our cooling systems are a good example of why large diameter is the wrong direction after you at least accomodate the fan motor. large CFM air flow, terrible pressure. even if you necked it down.
we optimally would want a 3" fan, but the 3.5 to 4" seems to work with the ultra high powered motors, but 5" doesnt seem to make the pressure, even with a lot more power. lots of trade offs, thats why we do so much testing first to see the trade offs.
the engine produces thrust by mass flow, not pressure diff though. in the eRAM, we are trying ONLY to match the flow of the engine and raise pressure.
the fans in our cooling systems are a good example of why large diameter is the wrong direction after you at least accomodate the fan motor. large CFM air flow, terrible pressure. even if you necked it down.
we optimally would want a 3" fan, but the 3.5 to 4" seems to work with the ultra high powered motors, but 5" doesnt seem to make the pressure, even with a lot more power. lots of trade offs, thats why we do so much testing first to see the trade offs.
If the old system was 3inch or smaller and going to 3 1/2 to 4 is better why do you think 5" with more watts is worse?Did you try 5" fans with 8000 to 10,000 watts and different blades to see if it made more power?Some of those electric motors they are running are making 13 to 16 horsepower,talking the power of the electric motor not what it ads to a car motor.The prices of that setup would be alot more also.
How much horsepower with the new system on the v8 Mustang or can't say yet till it gets closer to market?
Right now I have the 4inch od elbows and 4 "tubes along the back firewall.
If I get the 4inch Y pipe built then the system out back won't be necked down it will be all one diameter all the way thru the system.I wouldn't count out larger fans with the right blades with higher watts yet.
11-06-2010, 01:58 AM
#100
Burning Brakes
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EDF that already have their own aluminum housings to mount the motors should be able to mount right to a pipe with clamp and no distortion as they are webed inside the housings.
Last edited by inactiveuser1; 05-07-2012 at 12:50 AM.
11-06-2010, 02:16 AM
#101
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wow, those are nice looking. Ill have to check out the site to see if we can use them. the main secret sauce is in the control mechanism and method. thats part of the patent as well.
11-11-2010, 01:43 AM
#102
Burning Brakes
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They are a good looking fan.Going to try and pickup one up and see if I can adapt it to my 4inch rear pipes.If I can mount it ok going to put dual fans into my Cold Air Intakes and try for 10,000watts.
Not going with standard 12 volt system off the alternator or the updated 24 volt system for EDF.
The 40+ volt motors are the latest as ESC technology is getting better so would go with the highest voltage motors available
which are over 40 volts.
The 4 inch pipes still go into the 3 1/2 inch Y pipe but if I can built a 4" Y pipe like the one in the picture will go with that.There are also screens that can be built into the system haven't seen any yet but they are supposed to be 4" also.
Not going with standard 12 volt system off the alternator or the updated 24 volt system for EDF.
The 40+ volt motors are the latest as ESC technology is getting better so would go with the highest voltage motors available
which are over 40 volts.
The 4 inch pipes still go into the 3 1/2 inch Y pipe but if I can built a 4" Y pipe like the one in the picture will go with that.There are also screens that can be built into the system haven't seen any yet but they are supposed to be 4" also.
Last edited by inactiveuser1; 05-06-2013 at 12:25 AM.
11-11-2010, 12:48 PM
#103
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that will work! 10Kwatts, wow, thats like 14hp for the motor! I dont know the pressure that it will make, but it could be in the 3-5psi range If I was to guess. could be a 50hp adder!
475hp/460lb.ft
11-13-2010, 04:29 PM
#105
Burning Brakes
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Bottom of page 20,000 watts coming soon for these EDF jets
http://www.xtremepowersystems.net/dynamax.php
