SCCA, NASA: Where would a near-stock '79 be placed?
10-21-2008, 06:48 PM
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Three Wheelin'
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SCCA, NASA: Where would a near-stock '79 be placed?
Hey gang...
I am curious as to what classes a '79 928 would be placed in if one wanted to build as cheap a race car as possible for either SCCA or NASA. Also, if anyone races in either of these classes, would a '79 be competitive?
Any info appreciated. Looking for something similar to 944 Spec rules (engine essentially stock).
Thanks!
I am curious as to what classes a '79 928 would be placed in if one wanted to build as cheap a race car as possible for either SCCA or NASA. Also, if anyone races in either of these classes, would a '79 be competitive?
Any info appreciated. Looking for something similar to 944 Spec rules (engine essentially stock).
Thanks!
10-21-2008, 09:12 PM
#3
Race Director
most 928 are classed SCCA ITE which is essentially a catch all local class where almost anything goes...
In Nasa it would be GTS which is ranked by power to weight...to make things fair.... I think 928's can run in Spec 944 under certain circumstances too...then there is PCA and POC too....
In Nasa it would be GTS which is ranked by power to weight...to make things fair.... I think 928's can run in Spec 944 under certain circumstances too...then there is PCA and POC too....
10-21-2008, 09:21 PM
#4
Rennlist Member
Brian's right. as to the performance of a 79, i had one. just gutted and near 200rwhp if i was going to guess. big tires and rims and a wide open exhaust. I was able to muster up a 2:10 at thunderhill, but that was scarry. the brakes are really small! over the years with the part euro 5 liter and Holbert S4, times dropped slowly to the 2:01.5 range, but happy with high 2:02s. spec miatas get in the 2:10 range! (momemtum cars)
In GTS, because you are HP to weigh ratio classed, you should have fun. get some bigger brakes and 9s/10s front to rear rims. 275 and 305 tires. no fender mods are needed. just some serious bat rollling
stock suspension can be used, if you have some good shocks. (bilstiens). just cut 1 coil out of them and that might make it stiff enough to compete with. If they are stock springs, maybe 2 coils!
you will be aching for an S4 in no time!
mk
In GTS, because you are HP to weigh ratio classed, you should have fun. get some bigger brakes and 9s/10s front to rear rims. 275 and 305 tires. no fender mods are needed. just some serious bat rollling
stock suspension can be used, if you have some good shocks. (bilstiens). just cut 1 coil out of them and that might make it stiff enough to compete with. If they are stock springs, maybe 2 coils!
you will be aching for an S4 in no time!
mk
10-21-2008, 10:57 PM
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Three Wheelin'
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Great, thanks so much guys!
I am kind of torn between keeping this a street-legal "weekend track car" for HPDE's and the like, or making it a low-budget racer. I likely wouldn't be very competitive - I'd probably buy people's used tires to cut costs, thinks like that - I would just be doing it for fun.
I guess we'll see how it goes...tomorrow is the big day where I try to fire it up and see exactly what I've got. If it runs well and compression is within spec, I'll likely lean toward the racer.
Any ideas for race prep on a budget?
I'm wondering where I might find the best buys on tires, and also, what the minimum I could get away with for suspension mods would be. I can't afford a "coil-over" setup, so I guess I'd be looking for a decent shock and "race" spring combo, swaybars, things like that. Thanks again guys.
PS, I will be renewing my membership this week.
I am kind of torn between keeping this a street-legal "weekend track car" for HPDE's and the like, or making it a low-budget racer. I likely wouldn't be very competitive - I'd probably buy people's used tires to cut costs, thinks like that - I would just be doing it for fun.
I guess we'll see how it goes...tomorrow is the big day where I try to fire it up and see exactly what I've got. If it runs well and compression is within spec, I'll likely lean toward the racer.
Any ideas for race prep on a budget?
I'm wondering where I might find the best buys on tires, and also, what the minimum I could get away with for suspension mods would be. I can't afford a "coil-over" setup, so I guess I'd be looking for a decent shock and "race" spring combo, swaybars, things like that. Thanks again guys.
PS, I will be renewing my membership this week.
10-22-2008, 12:39 AM
#6
Race Director
Apeks
Your lucky...you are in the LA area near www.928intl.com and Mark Anderson, who sets the standard for a 928 race car...... Drop by his shop and take a look at the "Zombie" sometime.....its wicked....
As for race prep on a budget.....it is do-able....but not "cheap" per say..... a 79 will need at least "S" brakes (which can be found pretty cheap), but S4 or larger is ideal (more $$$$)....a euro engine helps ALOT.....also more $$$, but a strong CIS euro can be had for not too much $$$ really....Shocks and springs aren't too bad (btw 928's come with adjustable coil overs stock)
http://www.928motorsports.com/parts/...suspension.php
This is a hard deal to beat for shocks and springs.....Rims and tires get expensive quick, so go the "dumpster" route for tires just to get out there....I think Mark Anderson keeps a good supply on hand for cheap..... Gut the interior and the sticky "tar" sound deadening......add a cage and race seats and your ready.....Figure around $2k for a good cage.....seats can get pricey, but could be $250 too...same for harnesses....
Just make sure you know what class you want to race and build the car to pass tech for that class....some require fire systems and or fuel cells....all of which cost $$$$
I'm in the same boat as you...I just bought my 1st "race" car..which happens to be a 928...but it needs a cage-seats-etc before I could race it...of course I need a BUNCH more experience before that happens too....
Your lucky...you are in the LA area near www.928intl.com and Mark Anderson, who sets the standard for a 928 race car...... Drop by his shop and take a look at the "Zombie" sometime.....its wicked....
As for race prep on a budget.....it is do-able....but not "cheap" per say..... a 79 will need at least "S" brakes (which can be found pretty cheap), but S4 or larger is ideal (more $$$$)....a euro engine helps ALOT.....also more $$$, but a strong CIS euro can be had for not too much $$$ really....Shocks and springs aren't too bad (btw 928's come with adjustable coil overs stock)
http://www.928motorsports.com/parts/...suspension.php
This is a hard deal to beat for shocks and springs.....Rims and tires get expensive quick, so go the "dumpster" route for tires just to get out there....I think Mark Anderson keeps a good supply on hand for cheap..... Gut the interior and the sticky "tar" sound deadening......add a cage and race seats and your ready.....Figure around $2k for a good cage.....seats can get pricey, but could be $250 too...same for harnesses....
Just make sure you know what class you want to race and build the car to pass tech for that class....some require fire systems and or fuel cells....all of which cost $$$$
I'm in the same boat as you...I just bought my 1st "race" car..which happens to be a 928...but it needs a cage-seats-etc before I could race it...of course I need a BUNCH more experience before that happens too....
10-22-2008, 01:42 AM
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Thanks Ice!
I think I'll start with the OE binders w/ the usual upgrades (lines, fluid, pads) until I kill the rotors...then I'll look at the bigger ones.
As for engine mods...too many and I'll get bumped into the next class, and for the time being, I can't afford much. First on my list is high compression and euro cams. From there, I'll just see what opportunities for spare parts pop up.
That suspension kit looks like a good way to go, I'll save my pocket change!
I've got seats, and a builder for the cage ($300 labor + pipe stock). It's halfway gutted, I should be able to finish it in the next couple weeks. I'm gonna use mild steel for the cage, DOM is too expensive.
For now, I'm gonna run HPDE's as-is, and go step by step. It's odd having a Volvo sedan that's faster than your race car, but oh well. Haha!
I think I'll start with the OE binders w/ the usual upgrades (lines, fluid, pads) until I kill the rotors...then I'll look at the bigger ones.
As for engine mods...too many and I'll get bumped into the next class, and for the time being, I can't afford much. First on my list is high compression and euro cams. From there, I'll just see what opportunities for spare parts pop up.
That suspension kit looks like a good way to go, I'll save my pocket change!
I've got seats, and a builder for the cage ($300 labor + pipe stock). It's halfway gutted, I should be able to finish it in the next couple weeks. I'm gonna use mild steel for the cage, DOM is too expensive.
For now, I'm gonna run HPDE's as-is, and go step by step. It's odd having a Volvo sedan that's faster than your race car, but oh well. Haha!
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10-22-2008, 04:01 AM
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Wow...once you get some good tires, and a couple basic mods on the 928 - it's bumped from PTD to PTC...and it looks like it's really out-classed.
PTC cars include Supra TT, Acura NSX, 315hp M Coupe/Roadster, Caddy CTS-V, etc.
Now, granted, once THOSE cars accrue 20+ points worth of modifications, THEY get bumped up too...but still...
If I'm reading the rules right, a 1979 928 with Kumho V700s, Koni reds, and a full exhaust gets bumped up a class. But I don't see anything about sub-classing (PTD-1, PTD-2,...). So I assume they mean it gets bumped from PTD to PTC.
WHich means...if anyone happens to be running near-stock vehicles, ANY of the PTC cars would absolutely rape a '79 928. No contest what-so-ever.
Am I missing something here, or is the classing a little messed up with regards to a '79 928? Is this just one of those vehicles that gets the short end of the stick? PS, the other thing is that all 928's are lumped together. So a 1995 GTS would run with a 1978 base. WTF?!
PTC cars include Supra TT, Acura NSX, 315hp M Coupe/Roadster, Caddy CTS-V, etc.
Now, granted, once THOSE cars accrue 20+ points worth of modifications, THEY get bumped up too...but still...
If I'm reading the rules right, a 1979 928 with Kumho V700s, Koni reds, and a full exhaust gets bumped up a class. But I don't see anything about sub-classing (PTD-1, PTD-2,...). So I assume they mean it gets bumped from PTD to PTC.
WHich means...if anyone happens to be running near-stock vehicles, ANY of the PTC cars would absolutely rape a '79 928. No contest what-so-ever.
Am I missing something here, or is the classing a little messed up with regards to a '79 928? Is this just one of those vehicles that gets the short end of the stick? PS, the other thing is that all 928's are lumped together. So a 1995 GTS would run with a 1978 base. WTF?!
10-22-2008, 01:10 PM
#9
Somehow Jim does it in POC. He seems to have fun.
10-22-2008, 01:11 PM
#10
Rennlist Member
I had a conversation with Jim Bailey about this at SFest -- it seems that by keeping tire widths in check and running DOT race rubber you can run in a class where you are more competetive. Don't remember all of the specifics, but those were the highlights.
10-22-2008, 01:42 PM
#11
Drifting
But now we're talking Porsche only, not all comers. Are the rules different? I would think the POC would be more informed about where a close to stock '79 would belong in a class.
Also, Jim's got an '80 Euro. FWIW.
... and I have to mention this. Jim said has no plans of making Very Brown look nicer, as it really pisses off the 911 guys to get beat by a 928 that looks like a POS.
Also, Jim's got an '80 Euro. FWIW.
... and I have to mention this. Jim said has no plans of making Very Brown look nicer, as it really pisses off the 911 guys to get beat by a 928 that looks like a POS.
10-22-2008, 01:53 PM
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I'm right around the corner from Jim's place, I'll have to drop by this week and draw from their experience.
Maybe I should explore the SCCA classing as well...I've really only been looking at NASA.
Maybe I should explore the SCCA classing as well...I've really only been looking at NASA.
10-22-2008, 02:54 PM
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The old very brown 1980 is a USA spec has all of 198 HP to the rear wheels. The minute you gut a 928 and add big tires you automatically get bumped to the same class in POC- PCA that Mark and Joseph run in with their 6.5 liter engines. Put on headers and you get bumped from Improved to Production that means full Race rubber is OK (and needed) . Change the cams and you have moved from Stock past Improved into Production. Too many production points ( nearly every modification adds points) and you are into the V classes... It can take YEARS just trying to understand the RULES In the end it makes little difference no matter how fast or slow you are there is ALWAYS someone faster and slower out on the track WITH you (unless you are Mark A ) so there is always someone to race with ! You just may not win your class. The entry fee for a typical POC two day short track event is $365 , add in hotel room , fuel , Tires , and repairs ?? and it probably costs near $1,000 a weekend. Mild steel and DOM are considered the same as far as minimum diameter and thickness...Chromoly is allowed to be smaller and thinner but is harder to work with and weld correctly. Most want to see TIG welded joints NOT wire feed on all cages ! ( even the number of contact points for the cage is limited in many classes) The 2 valve 928s do fit into a 944 class with Nasa but as pointed out just a few mods and you jump out of those classes into some very serious competition. November 15-16 is a Drivers Ed event at Cal Speedway Fontana you should plan to go spend most of the day WATCHING and looking at cars , talking to people. If you bring a long sleeve cotton shirt and pants , closed shoes , I may be able to take you for a ride , after you sign all the waivers
In the end it makes little difference no matter how fast or slow you are there is ALWAYS someone faster and slower out on the track WITH you (unless you are Mark A ) so there is always someone to race with ! You just may not win your class. The entry fee for a typical POC two day short track event is $365 , add in hotel room , fuel , Tires , and repairs ?? and it probably costs near $1,000 a weekend. Mild steel and DOM are considered the same as far as minimum diameter and thickness...Chromoly is allowed to be smaller and thinner but is harder to work with and weld correctly. Most want to see TIG welded joints NOT wire feed on all cages ! ( even the number of contact points for the cage is limited in many classes) The 2 valve 928s do fit into a 944 class with Nasa but as pointed out just a few mods and you jump out of those classes into some very serious competition. November 15-16 is a Drivers Ed event at Cal Speedway Fontana you should plan to go spend most of the day WATCHING and looking at cars , talking to people. If you bring a long sleeve cotton shirt and pants , closed shoes , I may be able to take you for a ride , after you sign all the waivers
10-22-2008, 03:38 PM
#15
The old very brown 1980 is a USA spec has all of 198 HP to the rear wheels. The minute you gut a 928 and add big tires you automatically get bumped to the same class in POC- PCA that Mark and Joseph run in with their 6.5 liter engines. Put on headers and you get bumped from Improved to Production that means full Race rubber is OK (and needed) . Change the cams and you have moved from Stock past Improved into Production. Too many production points ( nearly every modification adds points) and you are into the V classes... It can take YEARS just trying to understand the RULES In the end it makes little difference no matter how fast or slow you are there is ALWAYS someone faster and slower out on the track WITH you (unless you are Mark A ) so there is always someone to race with ! You just may not win your class. The entry fee for a typical POC two day short track event is $365 , add in hotel room , fuel , Tires , and repairs ?? and it probably costs near $1,000 a weekend. Mild steel and DOM are considered the same as far as minimum diameter and thickness...Chromoly is allowed to be smaller and thinner but is harder to work with and weld correctly. Most want to see TIG welded joints NOT wire feed on all cages ! ( even the number of contact points for the cage is limited in many classes) The 2 valve 928s do fit into a 944 class with Nasa but as pointed out just a few mods and you jump out of those classes into some very serious competition. November 15-16 is a Drivers Ed event at Cal Speedway Fontana you should plan to go spend most of the day WATCHING and looking at cars , talking to people. If you bring a long sleeve cotton shirt and pants , closed shoes , I may be able to take you for a ride , after you sign all the waivers
In the end it makes little difference no matter how fast or slow you are there is ALWAYS someone faster and slower out on the track WITH you (unless you are Mark A ) so there is always someone to race with ! You just may not win your class. The entry fee for a typical POC two day short track event is $365 , add in hotel room , fuel , Tires , and repairs ?? and it probably costs near $1,000 a weekend. Mild steel and DOM are considered the same as far as minimum diameter and thickness...Chromoly is allowed to be smaller and thinner but is harder to work with and weld correctly. Most want to see TIG welded joints NOT wire feed on all cages ! ( even the number of contact points for the cage is limited in many classes) The 2 valve 928s do fit into a 944 class with Nasa but as pointed out just a few mods and you jump out of those classes into some very serious competition. November 15-16 is a Drivers Ed event at Cal Speedway Fontana you should plan to go spend most of the day WATCHING and looking at cars , talking to people. If you bring a long sleeve cotton shirt and pants , closed shoes , I may be able to take you for a ride , after you sign all the waivers With the POC stuff, does EFI make a difference? Maybe instead of wasting your time, is there a site dedicated to the rules?