SCCA, NASA: Where would a near-stock '79 be placed?
10-22-2008, 03:43 PM
#16
Race Director
Wow...once you get some good tires, and a couple basic mods on the 928 - it's bumped from PTD to PTC...and it looks like it's really out-classed.
PTC cars include Supra TT, Acura NSX, 315hp M Coupe/Roadster, Caddy CTS-V, etc.
Now, granted, once THOSE cars accrue 20+ points worth of modifications, THEY get bumped up too...but still...
If I'm reading the rules right, a 1979 928 with Kumho V700s, Koni reds, and a full exhaust gets bumped up a class. But I don't see anything about sub-classing (PTD-1, PTD-2,...). So I assume they mean it gets bumped from PTD to PTC.
WHich means...if anyone happens to be running near-stock vehicles, ANY of the PTC cars would absolutely rape a '79 928. No contest what-so-ever.
Am I missing something here, or is the classing a little messed up with regards to a '79 928? Is this just one of those vehicles that gets the short end of the stick? PS, the other thing is that all 928's are lumped together. So a 1995 GTS would run with a 1978 base. WTF?!
PTC cars include Supra TT, Acura NSX, 315hp M Coupe/Roadster, Caddy CTS-V, etc.
Now, granted, once THOSE cars accrue 20+ points worth of modifications, THEY get bumped up too...but still...
If I'm reading the rules right, a 1979 928 with Kumho V700s, Koni reds, and a full exhaust gets bumped up a class. But I don't see anything about sub-classing (PTD-1, PTD-2,...). So I assume they mean it gets bumped from PTD to PTC.
WHich means...if anyone happens to be running near-stock vehicles, ANY of the PTC cars would absolutely rape a '79 928. No contest what-so-ever.
Am I missing something here, or is the classing a little messed up with regards to a '79 928? Is this just one of those vehicles that gets the short end of the stick? PS, the other thing is that all 928's are lumped together. So a 1995 GTS would run with a 1978 base. WTF?!
944 spec cars point out in PTD in NASA's PT rules. I am not certain of where the 928 will come to, but I would expect a car stripped with basic suspension and tires to be in PTC. The reaons is the 928 has quite a bit more hp.
As for it being competitive. It could be, but you would need to build it to match the best use of point in the PT system not just what is easy.
Most PTC cars I see are E30 M3's, Honda Civics with ITR motors, Real ITR's... Basicly cars with 180-220 hp for the most part. All that cars you listed would only run in PTC stock.
BTW... if all the 928's are on the same spec line in PT I can contact the NASA PT rules guy. Clearly each family of cars should get it own base classing.
.... EDIT.... Yep all 928 models are listed in PTD at 3200lbs. This is not right given the all the changes over the years. Just look at how the 944 and 911 models are split out. If you are serious about getting the right base classing for the 928 contact me. I can get you in touch with the PT rules guy. I believe he just lacked information to class them better. The rules were a massive undertaking and it is pretty clear there would be some errors.
10-22-2008, 04:27 PM
#17
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M758...
A familiar face from the 944 forum! I would love to ask about the classifications in regards to the 928. It's odd to me that the 221hp 2v CIS verison is head to head with the 345hp 4v EFI version.
Especially if my 3200lb car is racing Honda Civics with 200+hp ITR engines, weighing HUNDREDS of pounds less. The power to weight ratio would be impossible to compete with. I just don't' see how a 78-79 US-spec could touch those guys. If you breathe on the car too hard, you're bumped up to PTC.
I'm confused on the 944 Spec thing, too...someone mentioned a 928 in some cases may be able to run in 944 Spec? I don't see anything about this on NASA's site. Maybe this is for POC/PCA events, and not for NASA's series?
JIM...
Thanks! I do have quite a bit of track experience, though it's been a while. I used to have bragging rights in a FWD VW that 1980's 911's couldn't keep up with on the 2.2 mile version of Spring Mtn in Nevada.
I doubt my car will be running by that HPDE you mentioned, but if I'm around that weekend I may try to get out there.
Maybe I'll bring the Volvo...haha!
A familiar face from the 944 forum! I would love to ask about the classifications in regards to the 928. It's odd to me that the 221hp 2v CIS verison is head to head with the 345hp 4v EFI version.
Especially if my 3200lb car is racing Honda Civics with 200+hp ITR engines, weighing HUNDREDS of pounds less. The power to weight ratio would be impossible to compete with. I just don't' see how a 78-79 US-spec could touch those guys. If you breathe on the car too hard, you're bumped up to PTC.
I'm confused on the 944 Spec thing, too...someone mentioned a 928 in some cases may be able to run in 944 Spec? I don't see anything about this on NASA's site. Maybe this is for POC/PCA events, and not for NASA's series?
JIM...
Thanks! I do have quite a bit of track experience, though it's been a while. I used to have bragging rights in a FWD VW that 1980's 911's couldn't keep up with on the 2.2 mile version of Spring Mtn in Nevada.
I doubt my car will be running by that HPDE you mentioned, but if I'm around that weekend I may try to get out there.Maybe I'll bring the Volvo...haha!
10-22-2008, 04:33 PM
#18
Yes - maybe someone here that knows more about the subject can get your assistance, as it is offered, to speak to this rule maker? I am sure its a simple oversight, and that we can better classify, at least in NASA, since there are so many cars out there.
10-22-2008, 05:32 PM
#19
Race Director
M758...
A familiar face from the 944 forum! ...
I'm confused on the 944 Spec thing, too...someone mentioned a 928 in some cases may be able to run in 944 Spec? I don't see anything about this on NASA's site. Maybe this is for POC/PCA events, and not for NASA's series?...
A familiar face from the 944 forum! ...
I'm confused on the 944 Spec thing, too...someone mentioned a 928 in some cases may be able to run in 944 Spec? I don't see anything about this on NASA's site. Maybe this is for POC/PCA events, and not for NASA's series?...
As for the PT base classing I am 99% sure it was an oversight. Greg Greenbaum is the guy who was in charge of creating all this class and creating base classes for all the cars. Had to class ALL the cars on their rules. That is alot of cars and some are bound to be wrong. Once guys run them or try they can get looked and properly classed. Greg probably would factroy specs for each model year. Engine sizes, power output levels, curb weights and some info from PCA club racing to get a better place to put them.
If you want Greg's email PM me. Or look at NASAForums.com and look under Performance Touring.
10-22-2008, 06:22 PM
#20
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OK ......Porsche Owners Club
Presents
2008 SHORT TRACK SERIES (S.T.S)
Events #8 & #9
AUTO CLUB SPEEDWAY(interior road course)
November 15th & 16th, 2008
Saturday: November 15th, S.T.S. #8 - Sunday: November 16th, S.T.S. #9
Pre‑registration recommended to ensure your entry!
This event limited to the first 125 entry forms received, one form per driver.
Postmark date of registration determines priority of acceptance. What a tremendous opportunity to drive at this prestigious track located so close to home that you may not even need to stay at a hotel! “Walk-up” registration only if spots available. Avoid the grief; pre-register!
Students: Only 30 students can be accepted to this event. All must be pre-registered and must contact, Marty Mehterian, S.T.S. Chief Driving Instructor by phone only at: 818/785-4445 by November 11th, 2008 (Mandatory). Please supply Marty with your prior track driving experience and type of car you will be driving. Requests cannot be considered after this date and Instructor assignments cannot be made at the track if you have not contacted Marty by November 11th. Absolutely no walk-in students! First time students, please bring a copy of the Driver’s Manual to the track (it’s available on the website - please read it prior to the event).
Cars and Drivers: Limit of 2 drivers per car, one driver per entry form! This is a P.O.C. Points Event open to Porsche cars. Other make cars are permitted if event not sold out and may compete in an Exhibition class. All non-Porsche cars must pass technical inspection at the track. Tech at the track fee is $20.00.
Safety equipment: Long sleeve cotton shirts and pants, shoes with socks, SNELL SA’00 or newer helmet and street belts are the only requirements for Stock, Improved and Prepared classes. (Some loaner helmets will be available). Class V, Z and highly modified non-Porsche cars require Nomex driving suit, socks and gloves as per P.O.C. G.C.R’s. Go to www.porscheownersclub.org to download the G.C.R.’s should you have any questions. Also check the Express Menu on the P.O.C. site for additional information on the track.
Transponders: All entries running for time MUST use a transponder (one per driver), no exceptions. Please help us expedite registration at the track by registering prior to the event! We will run five groups based on times. You must submit your average lap time at the Streets of Willow or you will be put in the slowest group.
Class information is mandatory to run the event. If you need assistance with car classification, contact Steve Parker, Competition Director: steverparker@aol.com.
Temporary car numbers will be issued if you do not have a permanent car number. Complete waiver forms must be sent with entry forms. Incomplete forms cannot be processed.
Exhaust: Closed exhaust in stock classes. Open exhaust OK where class legal.
Registration and Tech: Gates open at 7:00 AM. Registration and Tech- 7:00 AM - 8:00 AM. You are encouraged to have your car pre‑teched at one of the Official P.O.C. Tech Inspection Stations. At-track Tech- $20.00. Be there early. At this track we highly recommend fresh brake fluid and sufficient brake pads!
Drivers' meeting: 8:00 AM. Sharp. All Drivers must attend the Driver’s Meeting.
Event information: Entry fee P.O.C. Members $195.00 per day or both days
$365.00. Membership $95.00 annually. Associate Membership $25.00. One School plus three mandatory S.T.S. events are required to obtain a Short Track License.
Run groups are as follows: Yellow ‑ all Students and slowest Driver/Car combinations, White – Experienced Student Drivers or Fastest Student for 2 Students using the same car, Blue: Slower S.T.S. Licensed, Orange: Slower experienced Drivers/Instructors,
Red – Fastest experienced Drivers/No students.
Indoor Garages Available:
There are a limited number of indoor parking spaces at $40 per space, two spaces per garage door. These will be sold on a first come first service basis.
TRACK DIRECTIONS:
http://www.autoclubspeedway.com/seat...tions_parking/
HOTEL INFO: Please try to use the host hotels. This helps us negotiate the best possible rates.
Marriott Hotel – Ontario La Quinta Inn
2200 E. Holt Blvd. 3555 Inland Empire Blvd.
Ontario, CA 91764 Ontario, CA 91764
909.975.5000 909.476-1112
Rates: $83.00 per night + tax Rates: $79.00 per night + tax
REGISTRATION
Mail entry forms to:
P.O.C. –c/o Laurie Taylor
14252 Culver Drive #A – Box 727, Irvine, CA, 92604 PH: (949) 360-6475,
FAX: (949) 360-6297, email: officeofpoc@aol.com
CHIEF DRIVING INSTRUCTOR
Marty Mehterian, email: zoro930@aol.com
818/785-4445
(students be sure to phone only)
Short Track Series Chairman
Bruce Wells – PH: (951) 536-7497
email: in2racing@charter.net
Director, Short Track Series
Jackie Ginsburg (310) 994-0020
email: jackie.ginsburg@sbcglobal.net
That is the info for that event..... I will be instructing a student or two and will have limited "free time" but will try to get one or two into the car for a few laps . Note the link to the GCRs , General Competition Rules that says it ALL about what runs where and is very close to PCA rules/classes.
Presents
2008 SHORT TRACK SERIES (S.T.S)
Events #8 & #9
AUTO CLUB SPEEDWAY(interior road course)
November 15th & 16th, 2008
Saturday: November 15th, S.T.S. #8 - Sunday: November 16th, S.T.S. #9
Pre‑registration recommended to ensure your entry!
This event limited to the first 125 entry forms received, one form per driver.
Postmark date of registration determines priority of acceptance. What a tremendous opportunity to drive at this prestigious track located so close to home that you may not even need to stay at a hotel! “Walk-up” registration only if spots available. Avoid the grief; pre-register!
Students: Only 30 students can be accepted to this event. All must be pre-registered and must contact, Marty Mehterian, S.T.S. Chief Driving Instructor by phone only at: 818/785-4445 by November 11th, 2008 (Mandatory). Please supply Marty with your prior track driving experience and type of car you will be driving. Requests cannot be considered after this date and Instructor assignments cannot be made at the track if you have not contacted Marty by November 11th. Absolutely no walk-in students! First time students, please bring a copy of the Driver’s Manual to the track (it’s available on the website - please read it prior to the event).
Cars and Drivers: Limit of 2 drivers per car, one driver per entry form! This is a P.O.C. Points Event open to Porsche cars. Other make cars are permitted if event not sold out and may compete in an Exhibition class. All non-Porsche cars must pass technical inspection at the track. Tech at the track fee is $20.00.
Safety equipment: Long sleeve cotton shirts and pants, shoes with socks, SNELL SA’00 or newer helmet and street belts are the only requirements for Stock, Improved and Prepared classes. (Some loaner helmets will be available). Class V, Z and highly modified non-Porsche cars require Nomex driving suit, socks and gloves as per P.O.C. G.C.R’s. Go to www.porscheownersclub.org to download the G.C.R.’s should you have any questions. Also check the Express Menu on the P.O.C. site for additional information on the track.
Transponders: All entries running for time MUST use a transponder (one per driver), no exceptions. Please help us expedite registration at the track by registering prior to the event! We will run five groups based on times. You must submit your average lap time at the Streets of Willow or you will be put in the slowest group.
Class information is mandatory to run the event. If you need assistance with car classification, contact Steve Parker, Competition Director: steverparker@aol.com.
Temporary car numbers will be issued if you do not have a permanent car number. Complete waiver forms must be sent with entry forms. Incomplete forms cannot be processed.
Exhaust: Closed exhaust in stock classes. Open exhaust OK where class legal.
Registration and Tech: Gates open at 7:00 AM. Registration and Tech- 7:00 AM - 8:00 AM. You are encouraged to have your car pre‑teched at one of the Official P.O.C. Tech Inspection Stations. At-track Tech- $20.00. Be there early. At this track we highly recommend fresh brake fluid and sufficient brake pads!
Drivers' meeting: 8:00 AM. Sharp. All Drivers must attend the Driver’s Meeting.
Event information: Entry fee P.O.C. Members $195.00 per day or both days
$365.00. Membership $95.00 annually. Associate Membership $25.00. One School plus three mandatory S.T.S. events are required to obtain a Short Track License.
Run groups are as follows: Yellow ‑ all Students and slowest Driver/Car combinations, White – Experienced Student Drivers or Fastest Student for 2 Students using the same car, Blue: Slower S.T.S. Licensed, Orange: Slower experienced Drivers/Instructors,
Red – Fastest experienced Drivers/No students.
Indoor Garages Available:
There are a limited number of indoor parking spaces at $40 per space, two spaces per garage door. These will be sold on a first come first service basis.
TRACK DIRECTIONS:
http://www.autoclubspeedway.com/seat...tions_parking/
HOTEL INFO: Please try to use the host hotels. This helps us negotiate the best possible rates.
Marriott Hotel – Ontario La Quinta Inn
2200 E. Holt Blvd. 3555 Inland Empire Blvd.
Ontario, CA 91764 Ontario, CA 91764
909.975.5000 909.476-1112
Rates: $83.00 per night + tax Rates: $79.00 per night + tax
REGISTRATION
Mail entry forms to:
P.O.C. –c/o Laurie Taylor
14252 Culver Drive #A – Box 727, Irvine, CA, 92604 PH: (949) 360-6475,
FAX: (949) 360-6297, email: officeofpoc@aol.com
CHIEF DRIVING INSTRUCTOR
Marty Mehterian, email: zoro930@aol.com
818/785-4445
(students be sure to phone only)
Short Track Series Chairman
Bruce Wells – PH: (951) 536-7497
email: in2racing@charter.net
Director, Short Track Series
Jackie Ginsburg (310) 994-0020
email: jackie.ginsburg@sbcglobal.net
That is the info for that event..... I will be instructing a student or two and will have limited "free time" but will try to get one or two into the car for a few laps . Note the link to the GCRs , General Competition Rules that says it ALL about what runs where and is very close to PCA rules/classes.
10-22-2008, 07:05 PM
#21
Three Wheelin'
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Thank you Jim!
Didn't realize it was a POC event, so I guess I'm out since I can't run the Volvo there. I'll catch up with you gents soon enough though!
Didn't realize it was a POC event, so I guess I'm out since I can't run the Volvo there. I'll catch up with you gents soon enough though!
10-22-2008, 07:38 PM
#22
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POC allows other makes to do the D E ....we always have several at each event. POC is the most restrictive about new drivers and the first 4 DAYS you run with us there is an instructor riding with you AND you start out in the SLOWEST run group and have to work your way up !
10-23-2008, 12:11 AM
#24
Race Director
POC allows other makes to do the D E ....we always have several at each event. POC is the most restrictive about new drivers and the first 4 DAYS you run with us there is an instructor riding with you AND you start out in the SLOWEST run group and have to work your way up !
10-23-2008, 03:09 AM
#25
Nordschleife Master
I was at a local track day recently and there was a replica cobra with a 5.0L running on the track, I was abit faster than him (second time on this track), through the corners and he couldn't shake me on the back straights. He gave me a point by after a reasonably short time. He had track time prior to this, but never on this track. As well he did not have the secondary bar on his car so he couldnt have an instructor.
Once he pointed me by he followed me for awhile. I started to walk away from him lap after lap but after a few laps of this I pointed him back by as I wanted him to slow me down alittle as I was REALLY pushing it.
We talked with an instructor whom had ridden with me on the prior track day and talked about his driving and he informed us that he learned more from talking with the 2 of us than the rest of the events he had been at.
As well he informed me that after following me around the track for those few laps he held a much better line through the corners, and ALOT more speed. Though he did admit he was not brave enough to go through turn 4 at nearly the speed I was carrying through there. The instructor seemed to think that was a good thing though.
My point is that it is ALWAYS good to have a second or more opinion, esp from someone who has run that track before.
Once he pointed me by he followed me for awhile. I started to walk away from him lap after lap but after a few laps of this I pointed him back by as I wanted him to slow me down alittle as I was REALLY pushing it.
We talked with an instructor whom had ridden with me on the prior track day and talked about his driving and he informed us that he learned more from talking with the 2 of us than the rest of the events he had been at.
As well he informed me that after following me around the track for those few laps he held a much better line through the corners, and ALOT more speed. Though he did admit he was not brave enough to go through turn 4 at nearly the speed I was carrying through there. The instructor seemed to think that was a good thing though.
My point is that it is ALWAYS good to have a second or more opinion, esp from someone who has run that track before.
10-23-2008, 01:10 PM
#26
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I really enjoy instructing over the years I have only had a couple of students who "knew too much" the vast majority quickly undestood that driving on a track is far different than anything they have ever done on the street. I always ask them if they would like to ride with me in the old very brown 1980 early in the day. After that most seem to listen very intently to what I am saying. All our laps are timed so they can see their improvement as the day goes on and often it is a LOT !! It is all good fun and the POC does strive to make it as safe as possible. Over the course of a students four required days you often get four different instructors which broadens the experience and each adds their own take on how to get around a track quickly. A new student on a new track is pretty much lost the first few laps. Over time they learn where they want to be in a corner though they often do not end up going there. Then they start to get one corner ...then another corner , until they put it all together ! Many former students one will say to me quite happily .." Hey I beat your time today !" and I am glad that they did .
and I am glad that they did .
