Coming Soon: Canards
Racer
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 495
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From: Iowa, USA
I'm pretty sure that Carl said that they were just on the 928 as an example, but were basically to be used in concert with other air-manipulation parts. Just examining the physics, I think that his concept, in a hypothetical sense, ought to do exactly as he says. Being an AP Physics student, I'd say he's right, at least to a degree. It may be a completely negligible down force, but there would be down force, as well as a vortex, due to the lack of air movement there, and the vacuum created by the airfoil.
Thread Starter
Developer
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 7,005
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From: Horicon, WI
If you do have tuft test data, or airflow dynamics, or smoke trail analysis then I would like to see them. You can PM them to me if you don't want to share publicly
It is, however, designed with careful study of those on GT racers and the books on the subject I have read, and the practical experience I have had tuning the canards on my friends 911. My design follows what I know so far.
After I make it in CF and mount it for real I can then provide traction circle and wind tuft data on a 928 to anyone interested.
This was a marketing test to see what people felt about the idea. The reaction I received was about what I expected.
A few (very few) people will buy them because they need them and understand how they work. A few more will buy them just because they like the way they look. And a vast majority of people will not buy them at all.
A marketing survey like this is helpful - it provides some clue as to how many we should plan to make. And THAT helps me select a manufacturing process that is most appropriate for the product and volume expected.
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,466
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From: not where you think I am
I've heard that this has been tried before without success. Apparently, just flattining the bottom messes up high speed handling.
But I have often wondered what the air does when it passes the tank and hits that opening to the rear bumper cover. Maybe one could cut out the license plate area and put a diffusosr in its place. Then you'll have an interesting time finding a new place for the plate, though...
one only has to look at the underside of any 997, gt3r, etc......
he already did.
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Jan 2007
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From: not where you think I am
while I am certainly no engineer, much less know anything about F1 aerodynamics....
cleaning up airflow is something that has been tried in other venues as well, with not so glamorous results. Don Garlits covered the front of his Top Dragster and found that yes, the airflow did work better, but also resulted in numerous blow-overs. Not that it has anything to do with what you are proposing here, it's just an example of an idea that didn't play out too well.......
For track use, it may be worth more effort and research.
For street use.....pass.
--Russ
cleaning up airflow is something that has been tried in other venues as well, with not so glamorous results. Don Garlits covered the front of his Top Dragster and found that yes, the airflow did work better, but also resulted in numerous blow-overs. Not that it has anything to do with what you are proposing here, it's just an example of an idea that didn't play out too well.......
For track use, it may be worth more effort and research.
For street use.....pass.
--Russ
Administrator
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 27,543
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From: Up Nort
Somewhere I have a picture (35mm days) of me cutting 3" holes all over the back of a brand new Corvette at Road America. It was the first time at a track with such high speeds with this car. Other drivers were reporting back about the rear bumper flapping like a sail down the straights, pushing out in the middle.
The holes solved the problem
Maybe in the spring Mike and I will try to attach some type of sensitive pressure device in the bumper of Jean-Louis or my track car.
This was old news in the 60's, most people thought these holes were for weight savings:
The holes solved the problem
Maybe in the spring Mike and I will try to attach some type of sensitive pressure device in the bumper of Jean-Louis or my track car.
This was old news in the 60's, most people thought these holes were for weight savings:
Rennlist Member
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,987
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From: In a tizzy
Wow, you guys are harsh. I've seen lots of "Aero" 911 and 944 race cars with canards. It is usually part of a chin spoiler front clip thing.
Doesn't the GT3 have a GT40/Enzo style front clip intake/hood vent to increase downforce?
Doesn't the GT3 have a GT40/Enzo style front clip intake/hood vent to increase downforce?
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 29,828
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From: saratoga, ca
guys, the picture of the open wheel car has canards. Carls dive planes are not "canards". they are dive planes. they produce less than 5 lbs of downforce for an equal amount of drag. want proof. mine are bigger, and are held by 2 little 1/8" rivets and no suport. if you were to push on them, they would crack off. However, i have proved on the track, that the splitter doesnt have forces acting on it and the dive planes offer a little downforce caused by the air spilling off the nose and routed to the sides, and up the dive planes. an order of magnatude more air flowing over them, when they integrate with the splitter. Also, Carl has them mounted too high to take advantage of any spill over air from the lower nose area.
So, a few definitions:
1. winglets are on the end of wings or sometimgs called small air foils "small wings" like those used are on an F1 car
2. dive planes are these things that are mounted to the lower front fender to add downforce pressure.
3. canards are small wings, sometimes fitted with winglets (see above) that act as attitude altering wings in the front half of a body moving through a mass of air. (they are similar to the elevators on an airplane, but mounted in the front half of the body). The picture on Carls poster post, shows an F1 car with the long wing in front. thats a canard.
4. end plates are used to contain flow over an aerodynamic device. (sometimes called winglets)
mk
So, a few definitions:
1. winglets are on the end of wings or sometimgs called small air foils "small wings" like those used are on an F1 car
2. dive planes are these things that are mounted to the lower front fender to add downforce pressure.
3. canards are small wings, sometimes fitted with winglets (see above) that act as attitude altering wings in the front half of a body moving through a mass of air. (they are similar to the elevators on an airplane, but mounted in the front half of the body). The picture on Carls poster post, shows an F1 car with the long wing in front. thats a canard.
4. end plates are used to contain flow over an aerodynamic device. (sometimes called winglets)
mk
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Joined: Feb 2003
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From: saratoga, ca
These dive planes will generate, on their own, about 2-5 lbs of downforce. a wing and a splitter can generate 100s of lbs of downforce. i measured near 250lbs of downforce in the rear due to my proven GT3 CF wing at only 5 degrees.
It caused such an understeer, it wasnt even funny! the splitter and hood vent equalized the modifications. in order for your pike Peak folks to really test their devices, they would have to test in a more controlled environment. keep in mind, none of the aero will have much of an effect for any of the 60-70mph turns. Sure, with a ton of power an a bunch of dive planes on a car will add something as far as downforce. where they are really effective is when used with other aero designs.
Through your designs, just put some pressure measuring devices on the surface, top and bottom and see the differentital pressure. they you can tell if it works or not . put some tufts on surface mods and see what the do to flow.
Your rear holes in the window probalby have air going into the car rather than exiting them. putting on some wool tufts can show you what is really happening with almost any mod. if you have a street licensed car, you have a free wind tunnel, your local hyway!
mk
It caused such an understeer, it wasnt even funny! the splitter and hood vent equalized the modifications. in order for your pike Peak folks to really test their devices, they would have to test in a more controlled environment. keep in mind, none of the aero will have much of an effect for any of the 60-70mph turns. Sure, with a ton of power an a bunch of dive planes on a car will add something as far as downforce. where they are really effective is when used with other aero designs.
Through your designs, just put some pressure measuring devices on the surface, top and bottom and see the differentital pressure. they you can tell if it works or not . put some tufts on surface mods and see what the do to flow.
Your rear holes in the window probalby have air going into the car rather than exiting them. putting on some wool tufts can show you what is really happening with almost any mod. if you have a street licensed car, you have a free wind tunnel, your local hyway!
mk
Ryan - I quickly hung them on my GT (which does not need them) to take their photograph. I thought it a lot more expressive than taking pictures of them laying on a table. The photograph was provided for illustrative purposes.
Again, I wish I had at this PC the pictures of the canard on my race car with full front chin splitter and S type chin spoiler - it is much easier to see their function there. But I don't.
But where you state that they can do nothing for downforce you are wrong.
A well-designed and placed canard will generate a vortex over the open fender well behind it, and increase the low pressure area at the hub of the tire. In so doing, they help remove air under the car (as it flows toward the low pressure) and cools the brakes a bit also.
It is by lowering pressure in the fender well and beneath the car that they contruibute to downforce. As M Kibort pointed out - they are quit small so the downforce the add as a wing is quite small.
Both of these items I posted in my first thread on this subject. I have yet to see where I am wrong.
And I'll point out - I can debate the merits/demerits of the idea without resorting to "its obvious you know nothing about aerodynamics" and other such high-handed BS. You should try that sometime.
Again, I wish I had at this PC the pictures of the canard on my race car with full front chin splitter and S type chin spoiler - it is much easier to see their function there. But I don't.
But where you state that they can do nothing for downforce you are wrong.
A well-designed and placed canard will generate a vortex over the open fender well behind it, and increase the low pressure area at the hub of the tire. In so doing, they help remove air under the car (as it flows toward the low pressure) and cools the brakes a bit also.
It is by lowering pressure in the fender well and beneath the car that they contruibute to downforce. As M Kibort pointed out - they are quit small so the downforce the add as a wing is quite small.
Both of these items I posted in my first thread on this subject. I have yet to see where I am wrong.
And I'll point out - I can debate the merits/demerits of the idea without resorting to "its obvious you know nothing about aerodynamics" and other such high-handed BS. You should try that sometime.
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From: Rep of Texas, N NM, Rockies, SoCal
Gee, it sounded like you had this all taken care of. When you said "It will do three things" I thought you had this all sussed out. I understand what you 'want' it to do, but what it will actually do is still up for grabs.
If you look at aircraft, you'll notice the lack of gewgaws. We have evolved winglets in the last 35 years, and Q-tip props(winglets for for props), but the Bonanza that is offered today is much like was offered in 1947, just not a V tail, and a sloped windscreen.
If you look at aircraft, you'll notice the lack of gewgaws. We have evolved winglets in the last 35 years, and Q-tip props(winglets for for props), but the Bonanza that is offered today is much like was offered in 1947, just not a V tail, and a sloped windscreen.
Rennlist Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 12,620
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From: Boulder Creek, CA
I'm with Brian on this. My take:
Carl, I applaud your efforts to push forward with every little improvement you can make in pursuit of the checkered flag, and to productize those improvements where it makes sense to do so. You are welcome to eyeball it against my fender(careful, the paint scratches easily), though I don't forsee having any use for them myself. I'm sure that many racers will be very interested to see the results of your testing on this item.
See how easy that was, Ryan?
Carl, I applaud your efforts to push forward with every little improvement you can make in pursuit of the checkered flag, and to productize those improvements where it makes sense to do so. You are welcome to eyeball it against my fender(careful, the paint scratches easily), though I don't forsee having any use for them myself. I'm sure that many racers will be very interested to see the results of your testing on this item.
See how easy that was, Ryan?
Nordschleife Master
Joined: Apr 2006
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From: theporscheconnection.com
I'm with Brian on this. My take:
Carl, I applaud your efforts to push forward with every little improvement you can make in pursuit of the checkered flag, and to productize those improvements where it makes sense to do so. You are welcome to eyeball it against my fender(careful, the paint scratches easily), though I don't forsee having any use for them myself. I'm sure that many racers will be very interested to see the results of your testing on this item.
See how easy that was, Ryan?
Carl, I applaud your efforts to push forward with every little improvement you can make in pursuit of the checkered flag, and to productize those improvements where it makes sense to do so. You are welcome to eyeball it against my fender(careful, the paint scratches easily), though I don't forsee having any use for them myself. I'm sure that many racers will be very interested to see the results of your testing on this item.
See how easy that was, Ryan?
However you will know its oh so insincere and when people try and spew garbage i challenge them on it. I am not all knowing, i am not Adrian Newey, but i know a thing or two about aero, and what i do know is that no stupid canard or dive plane that size and that shape and in that location is going to produce the things that Mr. Carl claims. So if you dont like to listen to me, thats fine. Please buy his thingy magigs to spite me if it makes you feel better. Please continue to fund Carls racing efforts, nothing wrong with that. I DONT CARE. But I see nothing but empty promises with this "mod" and i cry foul when i hear these insidious claims. ITS BS! its a tacked on piece of sheet aluminum, if you believe thats going to make your 928 handle like a GT3...... well then i cant help you and honestly would have zero interest in talking to you so in the end i guess i could care less what you think of me.
In all likleyhood those things would do more damage then good. But dont take my word for it.
alrighty then! Im glad you found something useful to contribute to this discussion
As for my ideas on this HOAX, i have said my piece, no need to keep saying it on and on. I think you can judge for yourself at the depth of the replies that someone has no real concept of what they are trying to do. But whatever.
I would love to hear other "douchey" comments though, thats fun! If you can post em, i'll listen to em......
BEING AGREEABLE IS SO GODDAMN BORING!
928 Collector
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From: Seattle
Carl, they're fugly. And I don't expect worth any performance vslue ... so I would recommend you move on to bigger and better things. Certainly a Kamm Tail or a full undertray all the way back would be better. Or at least a rear diffuser like on new Vettes etc .... 
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Joined: Jan 2004
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From: Boulder Creek, CA
Ryan, as I said I have no use for them however well they may or may not work. Since subtle doesn't seem to be getting across, I'll be blunt: I don't think it's doing anyone any good, you being such a dick about the way you express your skepticism.
Personally, I have no interest in having you think one way or another about this or any other product, but I don't think it's too much to ask that you be decent about what you do have to say.
Personally, I have no interest in having you think one way or another about this or any other product, but I don't think it's too much to ask that you be decent about what you do have to say.