Holber race car gets a new engine. Progress Report
08-07-2008, 08:32 PM
#107
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Thread Starter
Brendan, those pictures look just like the 150 RA on the guage we used. (horrible.) I think i get a smoother surface with a flat file ! 
If you took your fingernail and ran over the heads, it would feel like glass. absolutely no ridges at all. Again, just like the block surfaced that came from Todd.
I do understand the point about the rivet and tab. do you think its worthwhile re-torquing the heads to remove the rivet or can i just dremel it off? it doesnt look like its touching the head by that much. the others are way clear of any contact of the head.
mk
If you took your fingernail and ran over the heads, it would feel like glass. absolutely no ridges at all. Again, just like the block surfaced that came from Todd.
I do understand the point about the rivet and tab. do you think its worthwhile re-torquing the heads to remove the rivet or can i just dremel it off? it doesnt look like its touching the head by that much. the others are way clear of any contact of the head.
mk
This has pics and explanations. if it looks like the block in the picture, the guys says thats 110ra.
http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/gask...ish-53907.html
There is a chance my head pics are of a better finish than 50RA, but Todd did them like that and he does them differently.
Use some copper spray. You can get this at NAPA....
http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/gask...ish-53907.html
There is a chance my head pics are of a better finish than 50RA, but Todd did them like that and he does them differently.
Use some copper spray. You can get this at NAPA....
08-07-2008, 08:52 PM
#108
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I think people get annoyed, because rennlist people put time and money into that engine.
So they don't want Mark to do everything so fast that mistakes get made, and then something goes wrong.
A leaking head gasket or a cracked head could cause detonation by getting coolant into the chamber,
causing overheating, and possibly burn pistons, if it's running at high race RPMs when it happens.
People will be really annoyed if that engine gets destroyed during a race, because the assembly was rushed.
It's much better to take your time, ask questions, come to a consensus about things like the gasket sealant,
and *then* do it. If it was all Mark's own engine, and own money 100%, I would just watch and see what happens.
But rennlist people put money into this engine block. So people don't want to see it ruined by assembling it at a
NASCAR pit crew pace. Just the fact that the heads were already on, before a lot of this stuff was discussed,
makes it seem like they are working at an excessively fast pace. Which is how mistakes get made.
And mistakes can cost a lot down the road... Just my 2cents.
(I say all this because I did the same thing with an engine in a 280Z I had years ago.
Assembled the engine really fast, and cracked the head.
Coolant leaked into the chambers, burned pistons, and I had to rebuild the engine all over again...
But that was a lot cheaper to rebuild than this block will be...)
So they don't want Mark to do everything so fast that mistakes get made, and then something goes wrong.
A leaking head gasket or a cracked head could cause detonation by getting coolant into the chamber,
causing overheating, and possibly burn pistons, if it's running at high race RPMs when it happens.
People will be really annoyed if that engine gets destroyed during a race, because the assembly was rushed.
It's much better to take your time, ask questions, come to a consensus about things like the gasket sealant,
and *then* do it. If it was all Mark's own engine, and own money 100%, I would just watch and see what happens.
But rennlist people put money into this engine block. So people don't want to see it ruined by assembling it at a
NASCAR pit crew pace. Just the fact that the heads were already on, before a lot of this stuff was discussed,
makes it seem like they are working at an excessively fast pace. Which is how mistakes get made.
And mistakes can cost a lot down the road... Just my 2cents.
(I say all this because I did the same thing with an engine in a 280Z I had years ago.
Assembled the engine really fast, and cracked the head.
Coolant leaked into the chambers, burned pistons, and I had to rebuild the engine all over again...
But that was a lot cheaper to rebuild than this block will be...)
08-07-2008, 09:34 PM
#109
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I work fast, but not sloppy. I question everything as I go and i dont waste time, you know, sleeping.
Im following the exact notes of the engine builder. I have as much money in this as the list does and believe me, the money is a SMALL part of this chore! I would gladly pay double to have someone do it and do it right. Remember, i am no stranger to putting cars on the race track in short order. I have NO DNFs and no car i have been associated with, besides scots where the heads were not tightened the last stage (due to a communication error with the shop and scot on the process ) . Had i followed the manual, I would have tightened the bolts during one pass and it would have leaked like a MXXXXR! I questioned, called and used notes from the engine builder's own mouth.
I mean, how long can you stare at an engine?? we wasted some time last night but got the job done. the short block is done. Im very proficient putting the cams and timing these engines. the rest is now just assembly . turning bolts!
all the critical gaskets are changed. we worked out the bugs in the head gasket and head assembly, to where the engine builder is satisfied, so what am i missing. would you rather i put this together like some shops over a year and have a bucket of old nuts and bolts left over? there will not be a single waster not accounted for. trust me on that.
Here is the surface. you can see the reflection of my finger on the surface that was created by Ellsworth. (the shop that ellsworth used to use and has experience with alusil as well for boring and preping 928 engines)
the rivets are shown as well.
This engine will be put together this weekend, and in the car next week. it will be driven 500miles and then dynoed for mixuture and HP verification.
I will even drive it to the track for the race if all goes well. (no leaks, overheat, etc)
thoughts??
Mk
Im following the exact notes of the engine builder. I have as much money in this as the list does and believe me, the money is a SMALL part of this chore! I would gladly pay double to have someone do it and do it right. Remember, i am no stranger to putting cars on the race track in short order. I have NO DNFs and no car i have been associated with, besides scots where the heads were not tightened the last stage (due to a communication error with the shop and scot on the process ) . Had i followed the manual, I would have tightened the bolts during one pass and it would have leaked like a MXXXXR! I questioned, called and used notes from the engine builder's own mouth.
I mean, how long can you stare at an engine?? we wasted some time last night but got the job done. the short block is done. Im very proficient putting the cams and timing these engines. the rest is now just assembly . turning bolts!
all the critical gaskets are changed. we worked out the bugs in the head gasket and head assembly, to where the engine builder is satisfied, so what am i missing. would you rather i put this together like some shops over a year and have a bucket of old nuts and bolts left over? there will not be a single waster not accounted for. trust me on that.
Here is the surface. you can see the reflection of my finger on the surface that was created by Ellsworth. (the shop that ellsworth used to use and has experience with alusil as well for boring and preping 928 engines)
the rivets are shown as well.
This engine will be put together this weekend, and in the car next week. it will be driven 500miles and then dynoed for mixuture and HP verification.
I will even drive it to the track for the race if all goes well. (no leaks, overheat, etc)
thoughts??
Mk
I think people get annoyed, because rennlist people put time and money into that engine.
So they don't want Mark to do everything so fast that mistakes get made, and then something goes wrong.
A leaking head gasket or a cracked head could cause detonation by getting coolant into the chamber,
causing overheating, and possibly burn pistons, if it's running at high race RPMs when it happens.
People will be really annoyed if that engine gets destroyed during a race, because the assembly was rushed.
It's much better to take your time, ask questions, come to a consensus about things like the gasket sealant,
and *then* do it. If it was all Mark's own engine, and own money 100%, I would just watch and see what happens.
But rennlist people put money into this engine block. So people don't want to see it ruined by assembling it at a
NASCAR pit crew pace. Just the fact that the heads were already on, before a lot of this stuff was discussed,
makes it seem like they are working at an excessively fast pace. Which is how mistakes get made.
And mistakes can cost a lot down the road... Just my 2cents.
(I say all this because I did the same thing with an engine in a 280Z I had years ago.
Assembled the engine really fast, and cracked the head.
Coolant leaked into the chambers, burned pistons, and I had to rebuild the engine all over again...
But that was a lot cheaper to rebuild than this block will be...)
So they don't want Mark to do everything so fast that mistakes get made, and then something goes wrong.
A leaking head gasket or a cracked head could cause detonation by getting coolant into the chamber,
causing overheating, and possibly burn pistons, if it's running at high race RPMs when it happens.
People will be really annoyed if that engine gets destroyed during a race, because the assembly was rushed.
It's much better to take your time, ask questions, come to a consensus about things like the gasket sealant,
and *then* do it. If it was all Mark's own engine, and own money 100%, I would just watch and see what happens.
But rennlist people put money into this engine block. So people don't want to see it ruined by assembling it at a
NASCAR pit crew pace. Just the fact that the heads were already on, before a lot of this stuff was discussed,
makes it seem like they are working at an excessively fast pace. Which is how mistakes get made.
And mistakes can cost a lot down the road... Just my 2cents.
(I say all this because I did the same thing with an engine in a 280Z I had years ago.
Assembled the engine really fast, and cracked the head.
Coolant leaked into the chambers, burned pistons, and I had to rebuild the engine all over again...
But that was a lot cheaper to rebuild than this block will be...)
08-07-2008, 09:58 PM
#110
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It will probably all work out fine...
Even when people do take forever to put an engine together, sometimes some random thing goes wrong that no one could have forseen.
So there is no surefire way to prevent any possible problem. It just seems like things are moving really fast.
Like imagine if everyone collectively decided that you really did need that special copper gasket sealant.
Would you have ordered some, pulled the heads, waited two weeks for it to show up, then start assembly again?
Or would you have just used the stock gaskets to save time?
My guess is that you would do the fastest way, not the best way, due to the downtime waiting for parts.
I think that's what people are a little concerned about.
That the choices about what to do are based more on time constraints, rather than taking the time to find out what the best option is.
Are you going to replace all the sensors and hoses under the intake while you have it apart?
Or are you going to use the old ones?
My guess is that you will use the old ones, if there is any delay in getting those parts...
Which is not the right way to do it, just the fastest way to get the engine up and running.
But it leaves more room for problems to pop up down the line.
I actually think that the 500 miles, and the drive to the track will be a good shakedown to make sure nothing is funky...
Like everyone else on here, I want to see that engine running great, and kicking ***!
I want it to last just as long as the original Holbert engine. Without any rebuilds or teardowns...
Anyhow, good luck!
Even when people do take forever to put an engine together, sometimes some random thing goes wrong that no one could have forseen.
So there is no surefire way to prevent any possible problem. It just seems like things are moving really fast.
Like imagine if everyone collectively decided that you really did need that special copper gasket sealant.
Would you have ordered some, pulled the heads, waited two weeks for it to show up, then start assembly again?
Or would you have just used the stock gaskets to save time?
My guess is that you would do the fastest way, not the best way, due to the downtime waiting for parts.
I think that's what people are a little concerned about.
That the choices about what to do are based more on time constraints, rather than taking the time to find out what the best option is.
Are you going to replace all the sensors and hoses under the intake while you have it apart?
Or are you going to use the old ones?
My guess is that you will use the old ones, if there is any delay in getting those parts...
Which is not the right way to do it, just the fastest way to get the engine up and running.
But it leaves more room for problems to pop up down the line.
I actually think that the 500 miles, and the drive to the track will be a good shakedown to make sure nothing is funky...
Like everyone else on here, I want to see that engine running great, and kicking ***!
I want it to last just as long as the original Holbert engine. Without any rebuilds or teardowns...
Anyhow, good luck!
08-07-2008, 10:56 PM
#111
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Mark has to make the choices. Recognize that this was a group gift, so unless there was a group consensus on how this should be done, comments and suggestion here are just one bit of input into the choices that Mark must make. At this point, I think the heads are probably fine. But you can see, Mark is not hiding anything and willing to do it over.
08-07-2008, 11:05 PM
#112
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New knock sensors are going in for sure. The throttle switch and ISV were checked and work like new. Anything brittle or too soft is getting replaced. I didn't look at the Hall sensor yet. Haven't completely finished looking over the intake, but it seems to be in good shape. The harness is in good shape. The injector plugs are solid and in better shape than the ones on my car.
08-07-2008, 11:12 PM
#113
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You can see the striated appearance of the head surface in the shot of Mark's finger tip. As he said, those are not dimensional ridges, although they may look like that. So, the surface looks different than Todd's, but it is glassy smooth. It stopped me for a while. We puzzled over it but decided to carry one.
08-07-2008, 11:27 PM
#114
Rennlist Member
I know that everyone who is following this thread is concerned for the engine and Mark K. That being said having none other than Bill B. there shoulder to shoulder with Mark K. building up this engine should give everyone a measure of calm that things are being done right and the details are being worried over.
I would personally like to thank Bill B. for helping out one of our a 928 Race gods on his own time. If I were living in that area I would have been there to at least help clean the garage and be a food/beverage/parts/tool runner for them.
And thank you to those that kicked in some cash for the new engine. Can't wait to see Mark K. start winning races again in his 928!
Good luck guys,
Constantine
I would personally like to thank Bill B. for helping out one of our a 928 Race gods on his own time. If I were living in that area I would have been there to at least help clean the garage and be a food/beverage/parts/tool runner for them.
And thank you to those that kicked in some cash for the new engine. Can't wait to see Mark K. start winning races again in his 928!
Good luck guys,
Constantine
I'm hoping Bill may want to travel a little North sometime
Mark..........build it as best you can; we all have an invested interested in you kickin' ***.
08-08-2008, 12:16 AM
#116
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08-08-2008, 12:23 AM
#117
08-08-2008, 12:25 AM
#118
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08-08-2008, 12:31 AM
#119
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08-08-2008, 01:20 AM
#120
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I can say with a high degree of certainty that it no move could be made until a rennlist concensus was reached, that engine would never get finished.
OK, I'll start. Ummm.....which is better, turbocharging or supercharging? If supercharging, is the twin screw or the Murph kit better?
OK, I'll start. Ummm.....which is better, turbocharging or supercharging? If supercharging, is the twin screw or the Murph kit better?