Nitrous vs O2
02-04-2003, 04:01 AM
#1
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Nitrous vs O2
What are the diffrences between injection O2, and N2O into the intake system?
Other than the ovious diffrenced is fuel mixture, are there any diffrences between the two?
Like detonation, or something?
Other than the ovious diffrenced is fuel mixture, are there any diffrences between the two?
Like detonation, or something?
02-04-2003, 05:39 AM
#2
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I've never heard of anyone "injecting" O2 into the intake...unless you are referring to forced induction.
NOS works by liberating O2 molecules when subjected to combustion heat. If sufficient fuel is present when this happens, then increased cylinder pressures [and by eventual extension...more power] is produced. NOS has some drawbacks, mainly that the bottle always has to be filled, the bottle's pressure and therefore output varies as it empties, there is a very sudden shock when nitrous hits [unless a progressive controller is used], and if the mixture goes lean- say goodbye to several pistons.
Good luck!
N!
'85 S2 5 Speed
NOS works by liberating O2 molecules when subjected to combustion heat. If sufficient fuel is present when this happens, then increased cylinder pressures [and by eventual extension...more power] is produced. NOS has some drawbacks, mainly that the bottle always has to be filled, the bottle's pressure and therefore output varies as it empties, there is a very sudden shock when nitrous hits [unless a progressive controller is used], and if the mixture goes lean- say goodbye to several pistons.
Good luck!
N!
'85 S2 5 Speed
02-04-2003, 08:21 PM
#3
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N2O is like propane, the bottle pressure stays the same as long as there is some liquid left in the bottle. Once that is gone, the pressure drops right off. You do get some pressure loss due to cooling but thats not a big deal in short bursts. If you've ever emptied with a propane torch or grill you'll know what it's like. Constant pressure, and then a steep drop off, and then nothing. Unlike oxygen, N2O is easy to liquify at reasonable pressures so you can store a lot in a small bottle.
-Joel.
-Joel.
02-04-2003, 08:53 PM
#4
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Thread Starter
The chemist in me is playing around with various things.
I was just curious if O2 injected into the intake was bad for the engine, assumeing I adjusted the fuel mixture was right.
I understand about the storage problem. That can be gotten around with the use of a tank, and a regulater. Probably safer to use a regulater, than have the line up to the engine be at high pressure.
See, I'm figureing if I can come up with an efficent system of removeing O2 from air, I could have a nos sytem with a basicly unlimited tank. Cool idea, not yet worked all out.
I was just curious if O2 injected into the intake was bad for the engine, assumeing I adjusted the fuel mixture was right.
I understand about the storage problem. That can be gotten around with the use of a tank, and a regulater. Probably safer to use a regulater, than have the line up to the engine be at high pressure.
See, I'm figureing if I can come up with an efficent system of removeing O2 from air, I could have a nos sytem with a basicly unlimited tank. Cool idea, not yet worked all out.
02-05-2003, 02:43 AM
#5
VU,
There is at this time no LIGHTWEIGHT, very portable form of O2 extraction on the planet.
There are O2 generators with -canned- bottles used on aircraft. Maybe Norm can give you some insight on the Commercial air carrier side of the house, but, again, impractical. O2 is also an extreme fire hazard and not worth the risk. Remember that airliner that smoked nose first into the Florida swamps a few years ago? I think the pilots decided the impact was a better deal than burning to death. No choice... Alas.
It's SC, Turbo, or a punched big bore air pump for the lot of us. $$$$$$$$$
There is at this time no LIGHTWEIGHT, very portable form of O2 extraction on the planet.
There are O2 generators with -canned- bottles used on aircraft. Maybe Norm can give you some insight on the Commercial air carrier side of the house, but, again, impractical. O2 is also an extreme fire hazard and not worth the risk. Remember that airliner that smoked nose first into the Florida swamps a few years ago? I think the pilots decided the impact was a better deal than burning to death. No choice... Alas.
It's SC, Turbo, or a punched big bore air pump for the lot of us. $$$$$$$$$
02-05-2003, 03:36 AM
#6
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
I know. But who says there can't be? My time is free, and it seems like its worth the effort to me, even if I fail which is bound to happen. Even if I fail, I will have ended up knowing more about the types of technologys out there. And that may just put me somewhere else intersting.
I know your time is not free, so I try to keep my questions simple, and answerable.
Also, I do belive you over state the risk of O2. Yes, it is a fire hazard. But it's been used in welding equipment for at least 60 years. There have been some amazeing explosions and fires with it, BUT for the most part it's safe.
Anyways, right now it's all theoretical for me. I have prove to myself that the math will work, before I invest a dime in it. If I don't come up with something, you'll probably never hear about it again. If I do, that would be sweet. I probly won't end up with something sweet.
btw, you did forget straping a 300 shot of Nos to a 78... Boy that would be fun for about 2 weeks!
I know your time is not free, so I try to keep my questions simple, and answerable.
Also, I do belive you over state the risk of O2. Yes, it is a fire hazard. But it's been used in welding equipment for at least 60 years. There have been some amazeing explosions and fires with it, BUT for the most part it's safe.
Anyways, right now it's all theoretical for me. I have prove to myself that the math will work, before I invest a dime in it. If I don't come up with something, you'll probably never hear about it again. If I do, that would be sweet. I probly won't end up with something sweet.
btw, you did forget straping a 300 shot of Nos to a 78... Boy that would be fun for about 2 weeks!
02-05-2003, 04:21 AM
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It's been a long time since I've messed with nitrous in a car, but the subject of using O2 instead has definitely come up before. I seem to remember that nitrous is used because the nitrogen is inert, and acts as a buffer of sorts. Using straight O2 would result in much higher combustion temperatures, which would start to melt things.
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02-05-2003, 08:00 PM
#8
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O2 injected, what are you CRAZY!!!
ever heard of a Rocket Motor, they use liquid O2, and it can cause any combustable materials to be extremely explosive!!
This is why NOS is so easy to use. it is roughly 70% Nitrogen and 30% oxygen in liquid form. in keeping with optimal fuel air ratios in full throttle conditions, NOS is metered out to have the same ratio with the fuel that is added at the same time either through the same injector, or by increasing the duration of the fuel injectors when it is activated.
I used and raced with a 50hp shot that would last an entire 30 min race . with drag racers, 100-200shots are more common. dont worry about saftey, as it is very very safe. even if the fuel jet didnt turn on, you would go so lean that the car would loose power before it ever could create heat and dentonation . Very common to lean internal combustion engines by leaning the mixture passed stoichimetric (ie 14.7) valves and pistons only burn in this range right around 14.7. however, too much hp for the strength of the interal components would be more of a concern. So, a 6.5 litre stroker can put out 100hp more than stock, so 100hp shot could work without too much fuss on a 928 engine.
Nitrogen also cools the intake charge dramatically, effecting the burn in the combustion chamber in a positive way.
Think of 02 injection as rocket fuel, think of NOS as increased displacement for as long as the bottle lasts!!
Mark kibort
ever heard of a Rocket Motor, they use liquid O2, and it can cause any combustable materials to be extremely explosive!!
This is why NOS is so easy to use. it is roughly 70% Nitrogen and 30% oxygen in liquid form. in keeping with optimal fuel air ratios in full throttle conditions, NOS is metered out to have the same ratio with the fuel that is added at the same time either through the same injector, or by increasing the duration of the fuel injectors when it is activated.
I used and raced with a 50hp shot that would last an entire 30 min race . with drag racers, 100-200shots are more common. dont worry about saftey, as it is very very safe. even if the fuel jet didnt turn on, you would go so lean that the car would loose power before it ever could create heat and dentonation . Very common to lean internal combustion engines by leaning the mixture passed stoichimetric (ie 14.7) valves and pistons only burn in this range right around 14.7. however, too much hp for the strength of the interal components would be more of a concern. So, a 6.5 litre stroker can put out 100hp more than stock, so 100hp shot could work without too much fuss on a 928 engine.
Nitrogen also cools the intake charge dramatically, effecting the burn in the combustion chamber in a positive way.
Think of 02 injection as rocket fuel, think of NOS as increased displacement for as long as the bottle lasts!!
Mark kibort
02-05-2003, 08:14 PM
#9
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
What do you mean?
Many substances are useable as part of rocket fuel. Try high test hydrogen peroxide. Try concentrated nitric acid. Try hypocloric acid. Heck, even clorine gas can be used. The trick is the amount used. Very low conentrations of hydrogen peroxid can be placed on your skin with no ill effects. Hypocloric acid is used in pools. Clorine gas is disolved in bleach. Nitric acid is a key part of acid rain. See, concentrations make a diffrence.
O2 and N2O are both oxidizers, although N2O is a bit more stable. O2 has been used in the welding industry for many many years. I've delt with the industry. Yes, pure O2 will cause things to become even more flamable than they already where. Almost explosivly so. And yet, how many times have welders blown stuff up because they're useing compressed O2?
Oh well, I'm not even sure if I can make it work to start out. I'm scared if I can make it work, the O2 might dammage the engine. Wouldn't want that to happen!
Many substances are useable as part of rocket fuel. Try high test hydrogen peroxide. Try concentrated nitric acid. Try hypocloric acid. Heck, even clorine gas can be used. The trick is the amount used. Very low conentrations of hydrogen peroxid can be placed on your skin with no ill effects. Hypocloric acid is used in pools. Clorine gas is disolved in bleach. Nitric acid is a key part of acid rain. See, concentrations make a diffrence.
O2 and N2O are both oxidizers, although N2O is a bit more stable. O2 has been used in the welding industry for many many years. I've delt with the industry. Yes, pure O2 will cause things to become even more flamable than they already where. Almost explosivly so. And yet, how many times have welders blown stuff up because they're useing compressed O2?
Oh well, I'm not even sure if I can make it work to start out. I'm scared if I can make it work, the O2 might dammage the engine. Wouldn't want that to happen!
02-05-2003, 09:03 PM
#10
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I mean that you need the Nitrogen to keep the burn a controlled burn, not a detonation. If you want to use and add o2, you better use a different type of fuel. WE are not taking about small amounts here, we are talking about 14 times the mass of the fuel used!! NOS is used because of the stability of the composition and the nitrogen "cushioning effect" in the process of combustion. remove it, and you could have little bombs in each cylinder.
I dont understand what you are trying to achieve.
less useless ingredients in the bottle? now, you have 10lbs of o2 which would have the catalyst power and duration of a 30lb bottle of NOS?? In a crash, you would have a big bomb. heck 10lbs of NOS only lasts for a 30min race, now with a 30lbs equivalent 10lbs bottle of O2, I can last 1.5 hours??? pretty cool, but the feasibility is bad, due to my first comments.
Ive burned up a lot of NOS in the last couple of race seasons. at 40bucks a bottle, its not too much more than a tank of race fuel. However, no one allows NOS in road racing except one lone club, TCRA. That was fun while it lasted. Kieth has my system now, Right Kieth?????
Mark
I dont understand what you are trying to achieve.
less useless ingredients in the bottle? now, you have 10lbs of o2 which would have the catalyst power and duration of a 30lb bottle of NOS?? In a crash, you would have a big bomb. heck 10lbs of NOS only lasts for a 30min race, now with a 30lbs equivalent 10lbs bottle of O2, I can last 1.5 hours??? pretty cool, but the feasibility is bad, due to my first comments.
Ive burned up a lot of NOS in the last couple of race seasons. at 40bucks a bottle, its not too much more than a tank of race fuel. However, no one allows NOS in road racing except one lone club, TCRA. That was fun while it lasted. Kieth has my system now, Right Kieth?????
Mark
02-05-2003, 09:44 PM
#11
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Right now I'm plaing with numbers.
I'm takeing my Freashman level chemisty course and applying it!!!
Basicly, my idea is to take distilled water, use electricty on it, to split it into O2 and H2. I feed the O2 to the engine.
I take the H2, and combine it with O2 from the air. The problem is how do I recycle some of the electricy used to split the water? The energy recycled, the better.
I haven't solved this yet. I haven't solved the problem if quantity enghter. How to get enough O2 equickly enough.
Now will the O2 destory the engine?
My other alternate idea I'm trying to investigate is useing the heat from the exaust, air, a set up of catylist, and a system of pumps and purification, to synthisize N2O. My biggest problem with this set up is getting the extra N2 out...
Once I get the math to work out on one or the other or both, and it looks theoreticaly possible, I'd getting into the designing phase. One step at a time.
Kinda part of my 928 hobie. Eighter one would be cool. Not very likely though.
I'm takeing my Freashman level chemisty course and applying it!!!
Basicly, my idea is to take distilled water, use electricty on it, to split it into O2 and H2. I feed the O2 to the engine.
I take the H2, and combine it with O2 from the air. The problem is how do I recycle some of the electricy used to split the water? The energy recycled, the better.
I haven't solved this yet. I haven't solved the problem if quantity enghter. How to get enough O2 equickly enough.
Now will the O2 destory the engine?
My other alternate idea I'm trying to investigate is useing the heat from the exaust, air, a set up of catylist, and a system of pumps and purification, to synthisize N2O. My biggest problem with this set up is getting the extra N2 out...
Once I get the math to work out on one or the other or both, and it looks theoreticaly possible, I'd getting into the designing phase. One step at a time.
Kinda part of my 928 hobie. Eighter one would be cool. Not very likely though.
02-06-2003, 12:19 AM
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VU,
You're starting trouble again.
Now cut that out; you know that O2 injection would melt your valves like butter.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
You're starting trouble again.
Now cut that out; you know that O2 injection would melt your valves like butter.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
02-06-2003, 12:42 AM
#14
VU
Why don't you take some of that creative chemistry that you are trying to apply and figure out a cheap way to extract the hydrogen out of water and use that to power your shark. No pollution and abundant fuel supply! Good luck on your quest.
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
Why don't you take some of that creative chemistry that you are trying to apply and figure out a cheap way to extract the hydrogen out of water and use that to power your shark. No pollution and abundant fuel supply! Good luck on your quest.
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
02-06-2003, 02:06 AM
#15
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My chemisty is NOT creative. It's very traditional.
The water car idea disobays the conservation of mass and energy. It ain't happening! Trust me, I've tryed. The math says WAY no. It ain't happening, ever!
According to my math, the energy requred to split water into H2 and O2 for a constant 50 hp shot of O2 is about 233 kW. The engine output for my 83 is a mear 174 kW. As you can see, unless I do something REALY inovative, this isn't happening. The best conversion that I know of from H2 and O2 to water is a fuel cell. The most efficent are a mear 70% efficent. Also that specific type of fuel cell requires a huge stationary mounting. Not happening on a Porsche. That means I'd have to deal with much lower efficencys, and conditions like it doesn't like CO2. As you can tell, this is a long way off of even makeing the math work, much less a practical design! Basicly, unless something realy inovative happens, thats not happening.
I've yet to realy run the numbers on the N2O synthis idea, but that looks about equaly promising, which is not very. Would be cool, but currently, not happeing.
Btw, Old & New, melting valves like butter uh? Well, I guess I could add a bit of water injection to the air charge. That would cool them down. What do you think?
Anyways, off to my math. If I get it to work, expect a post on this subject in about 2 years, give or take 10.
The water car idea disobays the conservation of mass and energy. It ain't happening! Trust me, I've tryed. The math says WAY no. It ain't happening, ever!
According to my math, the energy requred to split water into H2 and O2 for a constant 50 hp shot of O2 is about 233 kW. The engine output for my 83 is a mear 174 kW. As you can see, unless I do something REALY inovative, this isn't happening. The best conversion that I know of from H2 and O2 to water is a fuel cell. The most efficent are a mear 70% efficent. Also that specific type of fuel cell requires a huge stationary mounting. Not happening on a Porsche. That means I'd have to deal with much lower efficencys, and conditions like it doesn't like CO2. As you can tell, this is a long way off of even makeing the math work, much less a practical design! Basicly, unless something realy inovative happens, thats not happening.
I've yet to realy run the numbers on the N2O synthis idea, but that looks about equaly promising, which is not very. Would be cool, but currently, not happeing.
Btw, Old & New, melting valves like butter uh? Well, I guess I could add a bit of water injection to the air charge. That would cool them down. What do you think?
Anyways, off to my math. If I get it to work, expect a post on this subject in about 2 years, give or take 10.