Hi Niels:

I'm glad to hear your car is running again! Unfortunately I had not much to contribute to this, so I kept quiet...

But now it sure reminds me of the starter problem I had with my Renault Fuego many years ago. I was on a trip to Switzerland to see my aunt and cousins in Zürich, and stopped on the way. I had to drop something off for my Dad in an industrial area that was deserted on the weekend. The car did not start, and there was nobody around. So I pushed it, jumped in, put it in gear, and got it to start. Needless to say, it started a few times after that, but not in front of my relatives' house. So I asked them for a hammer, and pounded on the starter (on these old cars, you could still reach it from above!!!). Tried again, and car started. You should have seen my two little cousins' fascination about starting a car with a hammer...

Question for John Speake:

When you say "upgrade" the ECU of an older 928, is that to the same ECU or feature set that can be found on the '89 and later cars? How interchangeable are these ECUs really? I have once borrowed one from an '89 model to test, if that would fix an idle problem we were chasing - and the car ran just like with my own ECU (91). May I assume that while new features have been added, the basics that run the engine remained the same?

 

Niels,
An upgrade of your LH from a /10 (S4 non-diagnostic) to a /11 (S4 with diagnostics, 1988 MY), is an EPROM change.

It would entail removing the cover from the ECU and swapping the EPROM. You can also change the EPROM in the EZK at the same time to get diagnostics on that as well - usefull knock sensor fault finding.

But most of the no start faults can be read from the LH alone. With a suitable diagnostic tester, you can also seperately excite the injectors, flappy, tank vent valve and idle stabiliser for correct operation, and also check the idle and WOT switches with the car in the garage !

Nicole,
You are correct, the LH basics are the same, they added more features in the software, and on the later cars added more hardware to the car, like the "ignition protection relay" which is actually a cat protection feature.

The basic LH ECU hardware stayed essentially the same from '87 to the end of 928 production.

So in general, you can "clone" an ECU of another model to that of your car by an EPROM change.

To upgrade from non diag. to diagnostic is a good change because it doesn't need any changes to the car's wiring or hardware.

 

Ok, 2 years later, it happens again...

The 928 has been collecting dust in the garage since november last year - I drove it into the garage, but when I tried to start it a couple of months ago, I got the infamous click click. Recharged the battety, no change. I decided I had more urgent things to do and left it alone.

Now, winter is gone, and I am so in need of hearing that lovely V8 again.

I got under the car today, pried the starter back (it didn't pop but had to be pried all the way back), recharged the battery, but got the same old click click...

My guess is the starter finally gave up for good. Any last words from the experts before I get the hex bit out and try to remove the bugger? (BTW the clutch line (?) makes it very difficult to reach the top-most bolt - can I unmount without drowning in brakefluid?).

 

Have you tried a new battery? If you leave a battery uncharged for to long it will most likely die.

 

Nope... But the starter definately "sticks"... Each time I try starting it, I have to pry it all the way back, (it doesn't pop back easily).

 

Confirm the voltage at the starter first: if OK, turn the engine via the crank bolt (27mm) enough to confirm that it turns easily - and to expose a fresh set of flywheel teeth -like on that guy.
If the starter sticks again, the clutch slave cyl. can be unbolted and the supply line moved -without losing a drop. The top allan bolt is extra fun - but when the starter is on the ground, you can test its function using jumper cables: it must be very well secured ... or it will take off to parts unknown ...

 

Garth, are you suggesting my flywheel has false teeth

I'll do that, then get a new battery, just to be sure.

Meanwhile, does anyone know if the lightweight starter offered by 928motorsports (http://www.928motorsports.com/parts/starter.php) is available for the S4? (their website says up to 86, so I assume it isn't)...

 

Niels, congrats on getting in running again. I would have the starter rebuilt if it keeps acting up.

Just a question to the guru's; Could it be possible a low oil level could switch something off to prevent serious damage? Just a thought.....

 

When my 88 did not respond immediately to the start key position, had the starter
replaced. Tried the turn key to start position and wiggle to rule out a worn
lock tumbler in the steering column.
Guess all the start cycles killed the starter.

Can't put the sunroof crank on the big V8 and hand crank her . . .
Ernest (NYC)

 

You best wait for the gurus to rise ( after all, it's Sunday AM ) - but in the meantime, there are no safety interlocks on any of the high priority (red) alarms: by interlock, I mean automated shutdown/start up prevention logic .... the only one that comes close is the ignition monitoring system on '89 up that will shutdown 1/2 the injectors on a running engine.
Basically, all the alarms are to alert the operator to take decisive action - none of those monitored conditions I'm aware of will prevent starting.
The car starter will always activate via the key switch - and starting will ensue as long as the flywheel sensor says things are turning, etc.
Good question -

 

One thing that hasn't been mentioned - have ALL of the main battery connections been cleaned? This should include the ground cable on the lower right side of the engine, the connections at the starter, the ground connection at the body in the rear, etc.

I would also take a look at removing and checking the starter yourself before paying the prices that you were quoted earlier for a starter. Check for wear on the shaft, dryness, roughness, rust, etc. Check for any obvious broken or worn parts. Lubricate the bearings, check the brushes, etc.

Here in the States, we have what are called "auto electric" shops, that specialize in repair and rebuilding of auto and tractor starter, alternators, motors (electric), etc. These shops are almost always the best place to help you - they can rebuild your starter, usually more economically than anyone else.

 

Thx Wally, sounds like good advice.

I popped the starter back, turned the engine by hand without problems, and tried again, but still no cigar. When not enganged, I can turn the starter by hand also (It takes a little effort, but that may be because of my ackward working position more than anything else).

Does the fact that the starter continues to "stick" in the engaged position mean anything? Or could I still be looking at a battery issue?

When I removed the battery yesterday, all but one cell was low on fluid, I topped it up before recharging, but it may have been low last time I tried to charge it two months ago also. Will a simple acid-tester tell if the battery is good?

I'll probably get a fresh battery before wasting anymore time with anything else. Thanks all, the 928 community here on rennlist is awesome

 

Anders: I you were right! Beer's on me. It was in fact the battery that only took a small charge.

Got a new battery today and it fired right up

Sucks to have spend yesterday on my back beneath the car wacking the starter. Not to mention having to mess around with two filthy belly pans. Oh well, I've learned a lesson: a battery CAN be bad even if it's just a year old...

 

Hi Niels
Have you let the battery get deeply discharged at any time ? This is usually what kills batteries in a short time. They do not recover.....

 

John,

I might have. I used the car for a few short (5min) drives over a 1 month period, then parked it for the winter. Yeah, I know... Not very smart, but I was busy building a house and being a dad, so the car took third priority for a while. Now the house is (almost) done, and I've lost interrest in the baby (j/k) , so the car is moving up the list again :P...