Thom1

Hi Neils,

It does not require herculean strength to turn the engine. I use a big breaker bar (1/2" drive) with a simple 3 foot long cheater pipe (interior diameter is wide enough to fit over breaker bar - overlap breaker bar 6 inches - remainder of cheater is extended for leverage). Just remove the upper fan cowling.

Here are the tools:
2. Socket for front main pulley - 27mm or 1 1/16”
3. 2” extension for pulley socket
5. Breaker Bar and Cheater Pipe for crankshaft pulley bolt socket


Of course, take the simple step of installing a good battery first.

Niels Jørgensen

Wee... I think I'm finally getting somewhere...

I raised the car, removed the belly pan(s), and tried turning the crank from below. Much better access, but still no cigar.

Took a closer look at the starter and there's a gap between the bellhousing and the starter (4mm maybe) large enough to see the starter gear and, more importantly, large enough to get a screw driver in there, and with a little tweaking, sure enough the gear popped back out.

Back to the crank... Not light as a feather exactly, but now at least I can turn it. I can't see the timing marks from below, so I can't verify cam belt exactly without an "assistent", but it looks good.

So what does this tell me. Is the starter toast? Or why else did it not disengage?

Garth S

Ya Hoo!! Good progress.
BTW, who is this smart a$$ Bart guy, never heard of him - what's he know about anything...?
Paul, yes, a 20 cm bar will do it without plugs in; however, I'm reluctant to recommend diving in from the top with an 8" wrench when unfamiliar with the 'feel' on the job - a great way to get a hamburger hand.
Neils, the starter may be OK. I'd see if the battery effectively recharges, or is just taking a 'surface' charge. Most parts suppliers (here) will test your battery for CCA (cold cranking amps) if you take it to them. If it passes,(doesn't) recharge (replace).
You,re all set to rotate to your hearts content - it's many trips up and down , but we all need the exercise....
If the TDC marks confirm, and I'd fully expect them to, as I would expect the belt to be OK - then you can proceed to button up, charge the battery, and restart. This is a great time to check belt tension - do you have access to a gauge?

Niels Jørgensen

This is as close as I could get it (first attempt ) lying below the car guessing how much to turn to get to the mark. Close enough? (see pic)

Are you recommending that I do not replace the starter? I'd rather not wrap it up only to have to take it apart again in two days. I would expect that not disengaging was a sure sign of failure-in-progress?

Edit: forgot to say that, no, I do not have a gauge. I'll have my mechanic test the tension next time I go there (which'll probably be soon).

John Speake

Well done Niels, that's $6000 saved.

I would also recommend you postpone the starter renewal until you've got a good sound battery on there.

Garth S

Neils,
When you released the tension on the starter gear, did it snap back into place (good), or have to be forced back not as good)? I suspect the gear jammed as the battery died.
Also, assure yourself that notches on both cam gears line up when at TDC (T/O) - if you miss the T/O point, it is 2 full rotations on the engine to get to TDC again (ie., never go counter clockwise!) Did I mention that it's a lot of exercise.......

Niels Jørgensen

I didn't bother to check the second cam gear as I figured that if it was indeed the TB, I'd probably already done as much damage as I was likely to. I didn't replace the battery either, as it was somewhat ackward getting hold of one without having a car to carry it in (catch 22, I guess ).

Instead, I put the cover, rotor and dist.cap back on, re-inserted plugs, and re-connected the battery. I also added 1.5L of 5W/40 fullsynthetic motoroil, and decided to give it a shot.

It sounded a whole lot better than the last time, though it didn't start as quickly as it usually does. With a little help from my right foot though, It finally came to live with a lovely roar that reminded me why I go through all this trouble in the first place

So, yes, the car is very much alive again. Thanks a million all, for help, advice and not least for keeping my spirit up

Now, of course, remains the question of what happened in the first place? Since battery is obviously ok, and since the only real change I made was popping back the starter, that is still my primary suspect.

So, do I replace, or let it run till it breaks for good?

Garth S

I'd drive the car for a while and do nothing more, unless the starter jams again - 100Km from civilization, at night, with snow and freezing rain, and ............
If the starter actually is a problem, and does lock up again - put the car in gear and get outside to 'rock' the car back and forth, as if getting out of a snow bank (sand dune if you were from California). This motion should release the drive from the ring gear. The bright side is that it may never happen again!
Get the battery up to full charge, have a beer with the $6K you've "saved", and enjoy the weekend.

John Speake

Good news Niels, with all that money you've saved you can buy us a beer each :-)

Niels Jørgensen

One? You can have two. I'll even throw in a few glasses of your choice of Laphroaig, Tallisker or Bowmore (that's just what I happen to have in stock at the moment ). Hell, stop by and I'll open a bottle of squashed grapes, and introduce you to my cooking

UKKid35

One possible reason your car didn't start is that your LH ECU is failing. They seem to behave very erratically when they are on the blink. This may be what caused your battery to go flat. The problem is there is no easy way to diagnose such an intermittent fault; my LH ECU died gradually over several weeks, eventually leaving me stranded in Brittany several hundred miles from home. John Speake would be able to give you more advice.

John Speake

OK Niels,
Next time I'm passing through Denmark I'll look you up !

Let us know how the car behaves .............

Niels Jørgensen

Please do ...

Paul, LH was my first guess when it didn't start the other day, but I've been waiting for it to die for so long that I'm beginning to think it probably never will. Not that I'm hoping anything else

John Speake

Niels,
If you want to have a spare LH ECU to carry around for a while while your confifdence returns, I can lend you a spare one I have............

BTW the ECU in your car can be upgraded so it will have diagnosis, and any fault codes read out. So if the problem is with a sensor or whatever, a fault code would be stored.

You car is already wired for diagnosis, with the earlier 12 way connector, near the ECUs.

Niels Jørgensen

Thanks John, that's very nice of you, but since there is no telling how long my current ECU will last, it'd probably make more sense to wait untill it starts showing more obvious symptoms. (Though the car is my daily driver, I can live without it for a couple of days, and I have full covererage in case it needs to be towed home).

I think it was Martin Dunks I talked to at Euro928 2003 who mentioned the possibility to upgrade to 88 or newer ECU, sounds like a good idea. I assume this is something I do when I need to swap anyway, rather than something I add to my current ECU?