Value of 1987 951 with 200K miles
06-04-2014, 01:11 PM
#61
Three Wheelin'
It's like people in this thread insist on beleieving that the 951 is cheap car, and should be!
A $4k turbo with $4k in parts and free labor is a great car. New dash? Probably not. Reupholstered seats? No. Entirely redone suspension and aftermarket wheels? No. New tires, as well as completely sorted mechanicals? Absolutely yes!!
A $4k turbo with $4k in parts and free labor is a great car. New dash? Probably not. Reupholstered seats? No. Entirely redone suspension and aftermarket wheels? No. New tires, as well as completely sorted mechanicals? Absolutely yes!!
06-04-2014, 01:11 PM
#62
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I'm saddened to see all those posters who chose to purchase one of these cool and unique cars only to then bash them relentlessly on the forums. This is my second 944, the first I bought 25 years ago. I was so enamored with the first one that 25 years later, I bought the one I really wanted back then but couldn't afford. I have no illusions about its current value and although it would be great, have no realistic expectations that it will skyrocket later. I still have less than $10k in it after purchase and catch up maintenance (including new 17" wheels and tires). I'm not sure what other legitimate semi-exotic performance vehicle of this era, I could purchase in its current condition for $10k. I'm sure you could buy a roach and spend a lot more to sort it out, but that is where being an educated consumer comes in for any vehicle.
I'm not sure we should be complaining about belts, hoses, hardened wiring, worn out bushings etc. Any 20+ year old vehicle is going to have some of those kinds of issues. Even if they were maintained, nobody changes everything just to change it. If I bought an '89 Buick, I would be repairing/replacing many of the same parts, just the parts would (mostly) be cheaper. Although many were surprisingly affordable, for myself, I certainly had no expectation of inexpensive parts for my Porsche.
I make excuses almost everyday to find a reason to jump in the cockpit and drive it. It puts a smile on my face every time. That to me is worth the price of admission.
As to the whole V8 conversion thing, I've never driven one, so am talking out of my @#$, but I guess I don't get it. Unless you all ready own a 944 with a blown engine needing replacement, if I wanted an affordable V8 powered sports car with comparative mediocre handling, there are plenty of those all ready out there to buy and enjoy as well.
Cheers to all, I think I'll go for a drive......
I'm not sure we should be complaining about belts, hoses, hardened wiring, worn out bushings etc. Any 20+ year old vehicle is going to have some of those kinds of issues. Even if they were maintained, nobody changes everything just to change it. If I bought an '89 Buick, I would be repairing/replacing many of the same parts, just the parts would (mostly) be cheaper. Although many were surprisingly affordable, for myself, I certainly had no expectation of inexpensive parts for my Porsche.
I make excuses almost everyday to find a reason to jump in the cockpit and drive it. It puts a smile on my face every time. That to me is worth the price of admission.
As to the whole V8 conversion thing, I've never driven one, so am talking out of my @#$, but I guess I don't get it. Unless you all ready own a 944 with a blown engine needing replacement, if I wanted an affordable V8 powered sports car with comparative mediocre handling, there are plenty of those all ready out there to buy and enjoy as well.
Cheers to all, I think I'll go for a drive......
06-04-2014, 01:27 PM
#63
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ok,
imagine a 100 k miles down the road and pulling that tired 4 banger and swapping in this.....
http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/vem...oke-of-genius/
.
imagine a 100 k miles down the road and pulling that tired 4 banger and swapping in this.....
http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/vem...oke-of-genius/
.
Last edited by odurandina; 06-04-2014 at 01:54 PM.
06-04-2014, 01:27 PM
#64
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Ha. I've driven and owned both a 951S with factory motor as well as my current 951S with LS1 power. Driven both on the track, bought my current car to turn into a track car. The LS1 went in when the factory motor blew up. I wouldn't have taken out a good factory motor to do the swap.
I love the 951. It's easy to drive and doesn't bite you on the track, very balanced handling car with strong brakes (with the Turbo S). However, to think that these cars are worth $20-30k is just being naive.
As many previous people have posted, most of these cars are neglected and even the ones that haven't been are worth around $8-10k, at most, for a good driver. There will be outliers, like a bubble car, but the majority will be relatively cheap.
That's a good thing for us, as it allows us to enjoy these cars without breaking the bank to purchase them. Maintenance is another story of course.
NC951guy, if you drive your 951 on the track, a lot, you'll soon discover the reason for the LS swap. Simply put, it's a very reliable motor that requires little maintenance, has cheap parts, runs on street fuel and makes tons of power. In other words, everything that the stock 951 motor, on the track, ISN'T.
Different strokes for different folks. I think the LS motor is wonderful in the 951. It doesn't upset the balance of the car at all, but now you have linear power all the way up the curve, along with immediate low end torque. Something the factory motor simply doesn't have.
I love the 951. It's easy to drive and doesn't bite you on the track, very balanced handling car with strong brakes (with the Turbo S). However, to think that these cars are worth $20-30k is just being naive.
As many previous people have posted, most of these cars are neglected and even the ones that haven't been are worth around $8-10k, at most, for a good driver. There will be outliers, like a bubble car, but the majority will be relatively cheap.
That's a good thing for us, as it allows us to enjoy these cars without breaking the bank to purchase them. Maintenance is another story of course.
NC951guy, if you drive your 951 on the track, a lot, you'll soon discover the reason for the LS swap. Simply put, it's a very reliable motor that requires little maintenance, has cheap parts, runs on street fuel and makes tons of power. In other words, everything that the stock 951 motor, on the track, ISN'T.
Different strokes for different folks. I think the LS motor is wonderful in the 951. It doesn't upset the balance of the car at all, but now you have linear power all the way up the curve, along with immediate low end torque. Something the factory motor simply doesn't have.
06-04-2014, 02:18 PM
#65
NC951guy, if you drive your 951 on the track, a lot, you'll soon discover the reason for the LS swap. Simply put, it's a very reliable motor that requires little maintenance, has cheap parts, runs on street fuel and makes tons of power. In other words, everything that the stock 951 motor, on the track, ISN'T.
I feel like you should offer a full disclaimer here
his LS car will be on its 3rd Cheby motor in about what?....four years? ...and the replaced 24ish year old Porsche engine had been heavily modified/played/with/ etc, not a stock/near stock set up.
06-04-2014, 02:20 PM
#66
I'm saddened to see all those posters who chose to purchase one of these cool and unique cars only to then bash them relentlessly on the forums.
I'm not sure we should be complaining about belts, hoses, hardened wiring, worn out bushings etc. Any 20+ year old vehicle is going to have some of those kinds of issues. Even if they were maintained, nobody changes everything just to change it. If I bought an '89 Buick, I would be repairing/replacing many of the same parts, just the parts would (mostly) be cheaper. Although many were surprisingly affordable, for myself, I certainly had no expectation of inexpensive parts for my Porsche.
Cheers to all, I think I'll go for a drive......
I'm not sure we should be complaining about belts, hoses, hardened wiring, worn out bushings etc. Any 20+ year old vehicle is going to have some of those kinds of issues. Even if they were maintained, nobody changes everything just to change it. If I bought an '89 Buick, I would be repairing/replacing many of the same parts, just the parts would (mostly) be cheaper. Although many were surprisingly affordable, for myself, I certainly had no expectation of inexpensive parts for my Porsche.
Cheers to all, I think I'll go for a drive......
06-04-2014, 02:33 PM
#68
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The OP asked what he should pay? I said start with $1,000 for a shell and add the work that was done. Someone flamed my $1,000.
What should it be? $2,000 for the shell, $3,000 for the shell? After $3,000 we go into the absurd. Pick your number.
There are many ways to value something (I know, I have the certification). Another way is to determine the value of a "mint" specimen and work down on what it will take to make it mint. Ballpark for a Turbo S would be at say $13,000 an NA or S $7500 and a 951/S2 at $12,000. I throw out those numbers for a sub 90k mile specimen +- a lot of factors.
What is a "mint" (said with some sarcasm) 200k mile 951 worth? work down from there and the OP will come up with what me and my fellow curmudgeons are saying - Maybe $4k.
I'm saddened to see all those posters who chose to purchase one of these cool and unique cars only to then bash them relentlessly on the forums. This is my second 944, the first I bought 25 years ago. I was so enamored with the first one that 25 years later, I bought the one I really wanted back then but couldn't afford. I have no illusions about its current value and although it would be great, have no realistic expectations that it will skyrocket later. I still have less than $10k in it after purchase and catch up maintenance (including new 17" wheels and tires). I'm not sure what other legitimate semi-exotic performance vehicle of this era, I could purchase in its current condition for $10k. I'm sure you could buy a roach and spend a lot more to sort it out, but that is where being an educated consumer comes in for any vehicle.
I'm not sure we should be complaining about belts, hoses, hardened wiring, worn out bushings etc. Any 20+ year old vehicle is going to have some of those kinds of issues. Even if they were maintained, nobody changes everything just to change it. If I bought an '89 Buick, I would be repairing/replacing many of the same parts, just the parts would (mostly) be cheaper. Although many were surprisingly affordable, for myself, I certainly had no expectation of inexpensive parts for my Porsche.
I make excuses almost everyday to find a reason to jump in the cockpit and drive it. It puts a smile on my face every time. That to me is worth the price of admission.
As to the whole V8 conversion thing, I've never driven one, so am talking out of my @#$, but I guess I don't get it. Unless you all ready own a 944 with a blown engine needing replacement, if I wanted an affordable V8 powered sports car with comparative mediocre handling, there are plenty of those all ready out there to buy and enjoy as well.
Cheers to all, I think I'll go for a drive......
I'm not sure we should be complaining about belts, hoses, hardened wiring, worn out bushings etc. Any 20+ year old vehicle is going to have some of those kinds of issues. Even if they were maintained, nobody changes everything just to change it. If I bought an '89 Buick, I would be repairing/replacing many of the same parts, just the parts would (mostly) be cheaper. Although many were surprisingly affordable, for myself, I certainly had no expectation of inexpensive parts for my Porsche.
I make excuses almost everyday to find a reason to jump in the cockpit and drive it. It puts a smile on my face every time. That to me is worth the price of admission.
As to the whole V8 conversion thing, I've never driven one, so am talking out of my @#$, but I guess I don't get it. Unless you all ready own a 944 with a blown engine needing replacement, if I wanted an affordable V8 powered sports car with comparative mediocre handling, there are plenty of those all ready out there to buy and enjoy as well.
Cheers to all, I think I'll go for a drive......
Put emotions aside and do the math, I bet nobody will come up with 8k plus 4k of parts plus sweat equity for the 200k mile gem the OP asked about.
What would you pay for a near 100k mile 944S with 14 year old belts, original clutch, motor mounts, & control arms assume interior and paint are excellent? How would you arrive at your figure?
06-04-2014, 02:42 PM
#69
06-04-2014, 02:57 PM
#70
Rennlist Member
Beginning to get a little irked Cole. I know you're tweaking me for fun, but it's getting old and it's time to stop.
For the record.
Stock 951 motor pretty much blew up immediately, despite getting a PPI done, then having Cervelli do a significant amount of prep work to it for track duty.
Picked up a used, junkyard motor out of a '02 Camaro SS. Didn't rebuild it at all. Everything inside the motor and heads was stock from the factory. Got three hard track seasons on it, making anywhere from 375-400rwhp, running on street fuel. Motor didn't blow up, but was smoking on decel and leakdowns were 10-15%. I decided to replace it this off season so I wouldn't have a catastophic failure on track and ruin my season and potentially other people's track seasons too.
So I went with a completely new, rebuilt motor. Which while its runs well and smoothly, isn't producing the expected power. The shop that built it is taking care of the issue, but that means pulling the motor, sending it down to them and having them build me another one.
Yes, I'm a little unhappy with that. Yes, that makes me a bit sensitive. So stop poking me with a damn stick about this at every opportunity.
My point on reliability stands. There's NO way a used, stock, 951 motor, pulled from a junkyard and tweaked to make 375-400rwhp on street fuel would've lasted a single season, let alone three...
For the record.
Stock 951 motor pretty much blew up immediately, despite getting a PPI done, then having Cervelli do a significant amount of prep work to it for track duty.
Picked up a used, junkyard motor out of a '02 Camaro SS. Didn't rebuild it at all. Everything inside the motor and heads was stock from the factory. Got three hard track seasons on it, making anywhere from 375-400rwhp, running on street fuel. Motor didn't blow up, but was smoking on decel and leakdowns were 10-15%. I decided to replace it this off season so I wouldn't have a catastophic failure on track and ruin my season and potentially other people's track seasons too.
So I went with a completely new, rebuilt motor. Which while its runs well and smoothly, isn't producing the expected power. The shop that built it is taking care of the issue, but that means pulling the motor, sending it down to them and having them build me another one.
Yes, I'm a little unhappy with that. Yes, that makes me a bit sensitive. So stop poking me with a damn stick about this at every opportunity.
My point on reliability stands. There's NO way a used, stock, 951 motor, pulled from a junkyard and tweaked to make 375-400rwhp on street fuel would've lasted a single season, let alone three...
06-04-2014, 03:20 PM
#71
Me too! Why get all "irked" about it instead of just sharing the facts??
You preach about reliability but get upset when someone points out the facts.
I don't see why people want to take facts as personal attacks. Too many people leave out key points so they can support their own agendas here.(not saying you do Josh)
Share ALL the information then! For the sake of people buying and modding these cars they need to know everything!!
Yep. You got bad used car and a bad PPI. (Which people should take note of, the car was purchased unseen in person) It was also a car that had a ton of mods done to it.
It blew "immediately" after YOUR purchase. But after two decades of unknown use, abuse and mods. So it's not a fair, factual, statement to go around saying "blew immediately on first track use"
See, these are the facts that should be posted. Seriously!
Show people that if they choose to go LSx that things might not be all rosy if they use a junk yard motor, or that even a fresh rebuild can have issues.
I've read the Chevy forums for years and these motors are great, but far from flawless. Rod bearing are a very common failure point!!
I agree, but now you have filled in a whole bunch of qualifying statements that should have been posted before. It would be harder to run at those power levels, on a track without more money into the stock engine.
But your other posts make it sound like there is now way you could enjoy a single track day at stock-ish HP levels with a Porsche motor. That simply isn't true. Thousands of owners do it all the time.
As you know, I'm not against the LSx swap. Bought my car specifically to do it as a track car and then decided to run the stock engine till it blew. Which, 7 years later it hasn't!
But, I think its valuable for people to see all the work that has "really" gone into making your car what it is. It's an awesome car, but it hasn't come without its struggles.
You preach about reliability but get upset when someone points out the facts.
I don't see why people want to take facts as personal attacks. Too many people leave out key points so they can support their own agendas here.(not saying you do Josh)
Share ALL the information then! For the sake of people buying and modding these cars they need to know everything!!
It blew "immediately" after YOUR purchase. But after two decades of unknown use, abuse and mods. So it's not a fair, factual, statement to go around saying "blew immediately on first track use"
Picked up a used, junkyard motor out of a '02 Camaro SS. Didn't rebuild it at all. Everything inside the motor and heads was stock from the factory. Got three hard track seasons on it, making anywhere from 375-400rwhp, running on street fuel. Motor didn't blow up, but was smoking on decel and leakdowns were 10-15%. I decided to replace it this off season so I wouldn't have a catastophic failure on track and ruin my season and potentially other people's track seasons too.
So I went with a completely new, rebuilt motor. Which while its runs well and smoothly, isn't producing the expected power.
So I went with a completely new, rebuilt motor. Which while its runs well and smoothly, isn't producing the expected power.
Show people that if they choose to go LSx that things might not be all rosy if they use a junk yard motor, or that even a fresh rebuild can have issues.
I've read the Chevy forums for years and these motors are great, but far from flawless. Rod bearing are a very common failure point!!
But your other posts make it sound like there is now way you could enjoy a single track day at stock-ish HP levels with a Porsche motor. That simply isn't true. Thousands of owners do it all the time.
As you know, I'm not against the LSx swap. Bought my car specifically to do it as a track car and then decided to run the stock engine till it blew. Which, 7 years later it hasn't!
But, I think its valuable for people to see all the work that has "really" gone into making your car what it is. It's an awesome car, but it hasn't come without its struggles.
06-04-2014, 07:55 PM
#72
Three Wheelin'
Will someone tell me what they think an average 951 will be worth in 5 years with 125k miles? 10 years with 150k miles?
I don't even see why people are posting about their LS engines.
I don't even see why people are posting about their LS engines.
06-04-2014, 08:33 PM
#73
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After you have that computation done, go back to the 2005 car & driver comparison of the GTO and Mustang, and analyze the gotta have it factor. Take the product of that equation, multiply it by the inflation from 2005 to 2019 and take that product and multiply it by the above.
You should have a semi inflation adjusted value that you can take to the bank today to get a loan on.
Or, you can do like the rest of us and take a wild **** guess, which would produce a value of "not very much"
As for 10 years out, the car probably wont be very relevant, so I would go with "not very much", or about the equivalent of a 30 year old unrestored Firebird (non TA) or non Z/28 Camaro, or a regular mustang GT adjusted for inflation which after doing complex mathematical analysis using a complex matrix results in somewhere between very little, and not very much for a car with over 100K miles and "a bit more than not much " for a low mileage specimen.
I hope this answers your question. If not, I will consult my magic 8 ball and Ouija board for a more definite answer and report back to you.
06-04-2014, 08:47 PM
#74
Three Wheelin'
I appreciate the standardized approach. However, most of those inputs are highly subjective, so the end result is just a disconnected estimate, right?
I wonder if one of those wild **** guesses would be better?
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(Was the 944 series just compared to a Pontiac Firefbird in relevance???)
06-04-2014, 09:16 PM
#75
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I have only had my 951 for about a year, so by no means am I as experienced as some others on this board. However, I find the entire financial discussion to be nonsensical. If you want an investment, buy gold, invest in Apple, or buy some mortgage backed securities. I hear some people did really well with the latter. A decent rate of return was not why I purchased a 25+ year old car. I bought a toy, to be worked on, tweaked, improved and most of all - played with. I have absolutely zero expectation of getting any sort of financial return on this purchase - in fact I expect to spend more money on it over the next few years just to get it 'right' before I even think about mods. My value will be based on how often I laugh out loud while driving this thing, the solid feel of a shift (like a bolt action rifle), the crackle of the exhaust on the over run. Did I mention the perfectly positioned pedals for a heel and toe downshift? Not saying that I can do it, but the pedals are there... I have wanted one of these since I was in high school and now I have one, and fully intend to enjoy every minute of it - whether I'm driving, or crawling under it, or getting yelled at by my wife while I have the dashboard dismantled all over her dining table. To the OP: fair is what you and the seller determine. Everything else just noise and data - you decide which is which. If you get the car, this forum is a great resource to help you deal with the various issues that will invariably come up, but I am not turning the management of my 401K over to these guys. My advice - do what makes you happy. Get a car that suits your plans / driving style, and drive the #€@ out of it. I do not regret getting mine at all. That being said - I am not in a position to spend $20K+ on a toy. Do what makes sense for you, but arguing over a few hundred dollars will be immaterial over the life of the car. It will be a money pit, but if you are like me, you won't care (much). My previous cars were a 16 valve Golf GTI (stolen) and an E30 BMW (totaled). I tweaked and modified those as well, and would still have them if I could. I will keep this one as long as I can keep it running.
A decent rate of return was not why I purchased a 25+ year old car. I bought a toy, to be worked on, tweaked, improved and most of all - played with. I have absolutely zero expectation of getting any sort of financial return on this purchase - in fact I expect to spend more money on it over the next few years just to get it 'right' before I even think about mods. My value will be based on how often I laugh out loud while driving this thing, the solid feel of a shift (like a bolt action rifle), the crackle of the exhaust on the over run. Did I mention the perfectly positioned pedals for a heel and toe downshift? Not saying that I can do it, but the pedals are there... I have wanted one of these since I was in high school and now I have one, and fully intend to enjoy every minute of it - whether I'm driving, or crawling under it, or getting yelled at by my wife while I have the dashboard dismantled all over her dining table. To the OP: fair is what you and the seller determine. Everything else just noise and data - you decide which is which. If you get the car, this forum is a great resource to help you deal with the various issues that will invariably come up, but I am not turning the management of my 401K over to these guys. My advice - do what makes you happy. Get a car that suits your plans / driving style, and drive the #€@ out of it. I do not regret getting mine at all. That being said - I am not in a position to spend $20K+ on a toy. Do what makes sense for you, but arguing over a few hundred dollars will be immaterial over the life of the car. It will be a money pit, but if you are like me, you won't care (much). My previous cars were a 16 valve Golf GTI (stolen) and an E30 BMW (totaled). I tweaked and modified those as well, and would still have them if I could. I will keep this one as long as I can keep it running.