Value of 1987 951 with 200K miles
06-05-2014 | 01:53 PM
#91
Race Director
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 12,208
Likes: 16
From: The Heart of it All
Hi all,
I am looking for an advice about 944 turbo that I am seriously considering.I am coming from the BMW world, and really looking forward to own a true driver's car. Your feedback would be highly appreciated as I am trying to figure out how much that 951 in question is worth as there is no set price. I also want to be fair to the seller.
Here is the story:
My neighbor, an older gentleman has a guards red 951 that I have noticed been sitting most of the time. In fact it sat for almost a year, outiside... Nice Southern California weather helps, but sun did not help the paint on the roof.
After I left few notes under the wiper showing my interest in perhaps buying the car, or helping with it, the owner contacted me and explained that due to his bad back, he is unable to drive the car anymore. We agreed to meet and talk about it and we did yesterday. I was able to start the car and drive it a little. He loves his porsche and it sounds like I passed the car guy test as he is willing to sell me the car. He planned on autocrossing it and prepared it this way- never really had a chance. He gave me service records to review.
Here are the details:
Good:
-Mostly all records, going back to mid 90's. Car was meticously maintained with oil changes every 3K, transaxle oil changes,plugs, filters every 15K. 3 owner car, 1st from new to 1997, then 1997-99 and current owner from 99 on.
- New headgasket (machined head too, no valve job) due to coolant loss, new radiator and most (if not all ) hoses, heater valve.
- Leakdown within 1-2% and compression at 143-145 before headgasket was done (sounds to me like a coolant leak turned into an unnecessary hg replacement?) I have never seen such good numbers on the motor where hg is blown.
- Newer alternator, starter, most of the cooling system, some seals here and there, window regulator (passenger), brakes, myriad things here and there (time switches, coolant switches, plug wires, etc).
- newer motor mounts and many gaskets/hoses, so there are no obvious leaks.
- Good seals and glass- very clean interior.
- no dash cracks
- updated (but tastefully) sound system
- Keskin 17x8/17x10 old school mesh wheels (with 235/275 falkens).
- Bilstein/Eibach coilovers (torsion bar removed- 400/500 lbs.ft rates).
- Clutch replaced with Cup clutch kit and associated parts around 60K miles ago.
- 3 inch exhaust, new catalyst and recent 02 sensor.
Bad:
- High mileage- 197K. The car was maintaned very very well. When started after sitting for 8 months oil pressure went right up to 4 bars or so. Not too mention it started with no trouble (other than needed a jump). He says it's at about 40 psi hot.
- At idle I hear a sound like leaky exhaust manifold/tapping. Kind of a tapping but not too noisy. At the level of a valves needing adjustment but not as noisy as worn out cam. Sounds like a valve lifter tick maybe? Or injectors?
- Airbad lights are on
-Faded paint on the roof and rear bumper, car was keyed (not too bad but noticeable enough), few small dents here and there and stonechips on the nose panel.
- Car sat for almost a year
- Prior accident in the front (2000), seemed to be mostly cosmetic, paint is better and I have receipts- does not seem to have any structural damage. Hood lines up nicely.
- A/C is old R12 and empty
- Belts are 7 years old (only 20K miles old) - tension was checked about 3 years and 5 K miles ago- Do they need to be replaced ASAP?
- Waterpump is around 100K miles old, turbo cooling pump sometime then too.
- Sunroof is not working (gear needs to be replaced)
- Driver's side window is slow and does not go all the way down I think.
- Clutch pedal does not come up all the way, but clutch works. I would guess that extended sitting during the last few years ( 2K miles in 3 years or so) killed slave/master cylinders and/or hoses. Maybe just air, but brake fluid looks OK and is not more than few years old according to records.
- Aging out tires and other consequences of the car sitting on the sun for extended amount of time.
The car has always been in Southern California and has zero rust. Hatch does not leak. Body is very straight, but could use a repaint. I really like the car and not too scared of maintenance as I do everything myself ( maybe not the clutch, but did clutch on BMW's without the lift of shop equipment) I think I can manage 951. It is worth it
The question is- how much the car is worth? The seller is very upfront and honest man. The car was not for sale, until I bugged him number of times. He also realized that he will no be ever able to drive it. Property management was also ticketing the car for not being moved. He never meant to sell it and took care of it as much as he could.
I want to be fair with my offer, on the other hand I do not want to overpay too much.
Thank you very much for your input. It is highly appreciated. Hopefully I will join in the conversation here soon
Max
BMWCCA 286638
1973 Karmann Ghia Coupe
1981 BMW 320i
1999 BMW M3
2011 BMW 128i - For sale
I am looking for an advice about 944 turbo that I am seriously considering.I am coming from the BMW world, and really looking forward to own a true driver's car. Your feedback would be highly appreciated as I am trying to figure out how much that 951 in question is worth as there is no set price. I also want to be fair to the seller.
Here is the story:
My neighbor, an older gentleman has a guards red 951 that I have noticed been sitting most of the time. In fact it sat for almost a year, outiside... Nice Southern California weather helps, but sun did not help the paint on the roof.
After I left few notes under the wiper showing my interest in perhaps buying the car, or helping with it, the owner contacted me and explained that due to his bad back, he is unable to drive the car anymore. We agreed to meet and talk about it and we did yesterday. I was able to start the car and drive it a little. He loves his porsche and it sounds like I passed the car guy test as he is willing to sell me the car. He planned on autocrossing it and prepared it this way- never really had a chance. He gave me service records to review.
Here are the details:
Good:
-Mostly all records, going back to mid 90's. Car was meticously maintained with oil changes every 3K, transaxle oil changes,plugs, filters every 15K. 3 owner car, 1st from new to 1997, then 1997-99 and current owner from 99 on.
- New headgasket (machined head too, no valve job) due to coolant loss, new radiator and most (if not all ) hoses, heater valve.
- Leakdown within 1-2% and compression at 143-145 before headgasket was done (sounds to me like a coolant leak turned into an unnecessary hg replacement?) I have never seen such good numbers on the motor where hg is blown.
- Newer alternator, starter, most of the cooling system, some seals here and there, window regulator (passenger), brakes, myriad things here and there (time switches, coolant switches, plug wires, etc).
- newer motor mounts and many gaskets/hoses, so there are no obvious leaks.
- Good seals and glass- very clean interior.
- no dash cracks
- updated (but tastefully) sound system
- Keskin 17x8/17x10 old school mesh wheels (with 235/275 falkens).
- Bilstein/Eibach coilovers (torsion bar removed- 400/500 lbs.ft rates).
- Clutch replaced with Cup clutch kit and associated parts around 60K miles ago.
- 3 inch exhaust, new catalyst and recent 02 sensor.
Bad:
- High mileage- 197K. The car was maintaned very very well. When started after sitting for 8 months oil pressure went right up to 4 bars or so. Not too mention it started with no trouble (other than needed a jump). He says it's at about 40 psi hot.
- At idle I hear a sound like leaky exhaust manifold/tapping. Kind of a tapping but not too noisy. At the level of a valves needing adjustment but not as noisy as worn out cam. Sounds like a valve lifter tick maybe? Or injectors?
- Airbad lights are on
-Faded paint on the roof and rear bumper, car was keyed (not too bad but noticeable enough), few small dents here and there and stonechips on the nose panel.
- Car sat for almost a year
- Prior accident in the front (2000), seemed to be mostly cosmetic, paint is better and I have receipts- does not seem to have any structural damage. Hood lines up nicely.
- A/C is old R12 and empty
- Belts are 7 years old (only 20K miles old) - tension was checked about 3 years and 5 K miles ago- Do they need to be replaced ASAP?
- Waterpump is around 100K miles old, turbo cooling pump sometime then too.
- Sunroof is not working (gear needs to be replaced)
- Driver's side window is slow and does not go all the way down I think.
- Clutch pedal does not come up all the way, but clutch works. I would guess that extended sitting during the last few years ( 2K miles in 3 years or so) killed slave/master cylinders and/or hoses. Maybe just air, but brake fluid looks OK and is not more than few years old according to records.
- Aging out tires and other consequences of the car sitting on the sun for extended amount of time.
The car has always been in Southern California and has zero rust. Hatch does not leak. Body is very straight, but could use a repaint. I really like the car and not too scared of maintenance as I do everything myself ( maybe not the clutch, but did clutch on BMW's without the lift of shop equipment) I think I can manage 951. It is worth it
The question is- how much the car is worth? The seller is very upfront and honest man. The car was not for sale, until I bugged him number of times. He also realized that he will no be ever able to drive it. Property management was also ticketing the car for not being moved. He never meant to sell it and took care of it as much as he could.
I want to be fair with my offer, on the other hand I do not want to overpay too much.
Thank you very much for your input. It is highly appreciated. Hopefully I will join in the conversation here soon
Max
BMWCCA 286638
1973 Karmann Ghia Coupe
1981 BMW 320i
1999 BMW M3
2011 BMW 128i - For sale
Keep looking.
06-05-2014 | 02:08 PM
#92
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Joined: Dec 2002
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From: California
In an attempt to add some value to this thread, I'll give you my opinion on value. The "bad" list outweighs the "good" by quite a bit. At best its a $3K-$4K car. IMHO it just doesn't have a lot going for it. High mileage, bad paint, lots of little issues and some big. You'd probably insult the guy by offering him what I think its worth.
Keep looking.
Keep looking.
06-05-2014 | 03:35 PM
#95
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Joined: May 2014
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
From: Saratoga Springs, Utah
Our '87 924S is the low brow version in this series car but wanted to input my experience. 7 years ago my 15 yo found a craigslist ad for this car and wanted it for his first car. After recovering from the laughter cramps we went and looked at it. They were asking $2500 for a non-runner (broken timing belt) I offered $900 and was refused. They called about 10 days later and said I could have it for $900 if I came and got it today. Their homeowners association was going to tow it the next day. Had the valves replaced by a Porsche tech recommended machine shop and put the head back on with some other hose and injector rebuilding. My son drove it during high school and then off to college until last summer, back and forth and back from Boise, Portland and Salt Lake City. The only hard downtime was a failed FPR a couple years ago. Gave me a chance to fly to Portland with a backpack full of tools and enjoy a few days with him at his college. After 25k miles of driving it still only has 77k miles on it, so it has that going for it. I drove it back from Portland to SLC last May and it ran flawlessly but then we parked it and my son took another car to his job in LA. A month later it developed oil in the coolant. I procrastinated all winter and am now in the middle of a belts, seals, gasket, water pump replacement. Will probably drop the gas tank to fix the "normal" leak that I've read about. I recently joined this forum as a member and really owe a lot to the knowledge on this site that I've used for years now. My total $ investment in this car is ridiculously low. I really like this car and will get another one of this series when my son reclaims this sometime in the future.
So OP, maybe give a low price, say 5 or 6k, and when the HOA comes calling to your neighbor he'll have a quick sale ready. Or maybe I'll call him and buy it out from under you.
So OP, maybe give a low price, say 5 or 6k, and when the HOA comes calling to your neighbor he'll have a quick sale ready. Or maybe I'll call him and buy it out from under you.
06-05-2014 | 04:15 PM
#96
Team Owner
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 28,705
Likes: 213
From: one thousand, five hundred miles north of Ft. Lauderdale for the summer.
the guys posting low numbers have all my respect.
still, that (TURBO in the op) ain't worth a penny more than $2,000 dollars, imo.
10 $14,000 968s out there will eat 10 of (those T car's) lunch all day on cost of ownership for the next 10 X 100 k miles.
if you can't afford a 968 (a car with an engine bay and electronics still clean enough to eat off of....), then you can't afford a 944T either.
Last edited by odurandina; 06-05-2014 at 05:27 PM.
06-05-2014 | 04:35 PM
#97
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Joined: May 2014
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
From: Saratoga Springs, Utah
We have gotten $100k worth of fun out of this car. A better return than Apple stock. This car could melt down tomorrow and I'd still smile from the memories. BTW, I need to quit following this thread. Your avatar is NSFW in my lab.
06-05-2014 | 05:10 PM
#99
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Joined: May 2001
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From: Mile High
Our '87 924S is the low brow version in this series car but wanted to input my experience. 7 years ago my 15 yo found a craigslist ad for this car and wanted it for his first car. After recovering from the laughter cramps we went and looked at it. They were asking $2500 for a non-runner (broken timing belt) I offered $900 and was refused. They called about 10 days later and said I could have it for $900 if I came and got it today. Their homeowners association was going to tow it the next day. Had the valves replaced by a Porsche tech recommended machine shop and put the head back on with some other hose and injector rebuilding. My son drove it during high school and then off to college until last summer, back and forth and back from Boise, Portland and Salt Lake City. The only hard downtime was a failed FPR a couple years ago. Gave me a chance to fly to Portland with a backpack full of tools and enjoy a few days with him at his college. After 25k miles of driving it still only has 77k miles on it, so it has that going for it. I drove it back from Portland to SLC last May and it ran flawlessly but then we parked it and my son took another car to his job in LA. A month later it developed oil in the coolant. I procrastinated all winter and am now in the middle of a belts, seals, gasket, water pump replacement. Will probably drop the gas tank to fix the "normal" leak that I've read about. I recently joined this forum as a member and really owe a lot to the knowledge on this site that I've used for years now. My total $ investment in this car is ridiculously low. I really like this car and will get another one of this series when my son reclaims this sometime in the future.
So OP, maybe give a low price, say 5 or 6k, and when the HOA comes calling to your neighbor he'll have a quick sale ready. Or maybe I'll call him and buy it out from under you.
So OP, maybe give a low price, say 5 or 6k, and when the HOA comes calling to your neighbor he'll have a quick sale ready. Or maybe I'll call him and buy it out from under you.
Why didn't you give the seller the $2500 he was asking? How is your 27 year old rubber clutch disk doing? Replace it with the spring centered turbo disc when the rubber gives up the ghost. I am glad you got to spend time with your son. How much were the plane tickets? How much would a shop have charged if you didn't fly out?
06-05-2014 | 05:29 PM
#100
Drifting
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,212
Likes: 5
From: Colorado
Totally agree!
X951/LSx+944
I'd always offer less than asking.....duh!
The turbo clutch disc is larger and not compatible without other changes FWIW. But spring center discs are available.
06-05-2014 | 05:53 PM
#101
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Joined: May 2014
Posts: 35
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From: Saratoga Springs, Utah
Tom, to be honest I offered the $900 because I figured they would never take that price and my son wouldn't be able to say I didn't even tried to buy it. It was a fluke that I ended up with it. I didn't feel bad about it because they said they had other offers. I think I was just lucky that this aged vehicle didn't break more often and that Jack didn't abuse it. And, extremely lucky that my repair work was successful. I downed a six pack the night I got it started the first time and just sat behind the wheel. Still amazed at that. Also, I now remember that the starter grenaded within the first year or two.
The airfare was frequent flyer miles but I did stay at a nice hotel that costs a few bucks. I didn't even consider a shop since my son asked me to come out. He knows my weaknesses, his company and Porsche.
I appreciate the tip about the rubber clutch disk. Since I plan on repairing the gas tank crack, seems like I should check the clutch out. I think I'll finish the belts, pump and seals and see if I screwed something up and then back her back into the garage and start again.
The airfare was frequent flyer miles but I did stay at a nice hotel that costs a few bucks. I didn't even consider a shop since my son asked me to come out. He knows my weaknesses, his company and Porsche.
I appreciate the tip about the rubber clutch disk. Since I plan on repairing the gas tank crack, seems like I should check the clutch out. I think I'll finish the belts, pump and seals and see if I screwed something up and then back her back into the garage and start again.
06-05-2014 | 06:06 PM
#102
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From: Mile High
Tom, to be honest I offered the $900 because I figured they would never take that price and my son wouldn't be able to say I didn't even tried to buy it. It was a fluke that I ended up with it. I didn't feel bad about it because they said they had other offers. I think I was just lucky that this aged vehicle didn't break more often and that Jack didn't abuse it. And, extremely lucky that my repair work was successful. I downed a six pack the night I got it started the first time and just sat behind the wheel. Still amazed at that. Also, I now remember that the starter grenaded within the first year or two.
The airfare was frequent flyer miles but I did stay at a nice hotel that costs a few bucks. I didn't even consider a shop since my son asked me to come out. He knows my weaknesses, his company and Porsche.
I appreciate the tip about the rubber clutch disk. Since I plan on repairing the gas tank crack, seems like I should check the clutch out. I think I'll finish the belts, pump and seals and see if I screwed something up and then back her back into the garage and start again.
The airfare was frequent flyer miles but I did stay at a nice hotel that costs a few bucks. I didn't even consider a shop since my son asked me to come out. He knows my weaknesses, his company and Porsche.
I appreciate the tip about the rubber clutch disk. Since I plan on repairing the gas tank crack, seems like I should check the clutch out. I think I'll finish the belts, pump and seals and see if I screwed something up and then back her back into the garage and start again.
Your starter reminds me of when the alternator in my firs S2 died on a Saturday we ordered a rebuilt unit from Brumos that monday. They sent it from FL to NY. It was a dud. That was Thursday or Friday. They sent another (after I paid for two). Bottom line - two weeks down for something that takes an hour on a Chevy.
Does that affect a cars resale value?
Thanks Captain Nitpik.
06-05-2014 | 06:15 PM
#103
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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 74
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From: MN
Turbo values
hey everyone, just my 2 cents worth, jan. of 2013 bought a one owner 88 turbo S 52000+ miles for $10600 came with original window sticker and a nice file of work done to it plus came with glass roof, have put about 2200 miles on it, sits in garage most of the time (really all of the time) just bought a 89 turbo 177000+ miles, new clutch, bottom end and all hoses fuel lines replaced, belt and pump done with last 10,000 miles and brand me tires (almost $900), nice file of past work done to it and paid $7000 for it. felt real good about the deal, several people were standing in line to get this car at $7000? it really is a clean southern car and i expect to drive it to death (over 1200 miles in 2 weeks), also have an 86 944 turbo 92000 miles factory sport seats, lsd, fuchs, gave $6700 for in 2005, but if some one offered me $8000 for the 86, $10000 for the 89 or $14000 for the 88 S they would be sold in a heart beat because i can replace them or ones like them for less. if you can get a car with value added great for you, but buy it because you want to drive it. that being said i bought the 89 so that i could let the 88 S sit and keep the miles off. 
06-05-2014 | 06:34 PM
#104
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Joined: May 2014
Posts: 35
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From: Saratoga Springs, Utah
I bought a 914 after graduating from IU and was my daily driver. Within 2 years the salt and weather they have in Indiana caused rusting in the weirdest places on that car. Nice cars you have there. You must own a pickup truck, too, if you're a real Hoosier.