Value of 1987 951 with 200K miles
06-03-2014, 12:20 PM
#31
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I was buying the 944 back in October 2013, and was looking for 6-8 months before I got one.
I tell you one thing, nice but not perfect 944 Turbo's are about 8,000 plus, 10,000 to 12,000 is almost perfect condition, but anything below 8,000 is crap and I would not buy unless I have lift in my garage and another 5 grand to spend right the way, since most them seat are teared, oil leak, no air cond, some had a racing cage, I would not buy that one as well, since race track accident don't report any where and cars could have body crack at that age. A lot turbos were kept in the barns, so spiders and mices are could lead big potential problem as electrical system or even worst spider bite.
S2 are about same 9,000 to 12,000 in good condition.
944 S are about same as 944 NA just slightly pricy, maybe grand or so. I wanted a lot but no money for this toy. It will next one or 968 in few years.
944 are good ones between 5,000 to 8,000, I was looking for 89 NA with 2.7 L engine and found one and decent condition for 6,500 but bought 6,000, but after winter i found about $ 450 for parts and plus labor around 1,000. Plus tires this year are must. I don't drive everyday just weekend and ones during the week. So I can do that in the steps.
So I remember someone said it's at least 1,000 per year and it's true.
Of course we are not talking about car for 20,000 with 20,000 mile or less. it's collectors cars and I would never buy one, the car was made to be driven
I tell you one thing, nice but not perfect 944 Turbo's are about 8,000 plus, 10,000 to 12,000 is almost perfect condition, but anything below 8,000 is crap and I would not buy unless I have lift in my garage and another 5 grand to spend right the way, since most them seat are teared, oil leak, no air cond, some had a racing cage, I would not buy that one as well, since race track accident don't report any where and cars could have body crack at that age. A lot turbos were kept in the barns, so spiders and mices are could lead big potential problem as electrical system or even worst spider bite.
S2 are about same 9,000 to 12,000 in good condition.
944 S are about same as 944 NA just slightly pricy, maybe grand or so. I wanted a lot but no money for this toy. It will next one or 968 in few years.
944 are good ones between 5,000 to 8,000, I was looking for 89 NA with 2.7 L engine and found one and decent condition for 6,500 but bought 6,000, but after winter i found about $ 450 for parts and plus labor around 1,000. Plus tires this year are must. I don't drive everyday just weekend and ones during the week. So I can do that in the steps.
So I remember someone said it's at least 1,000 per year and it's true.
Of course we are not talking about car for 20,000 with 20,000 mile or less. it's collectors cars and I would never buy one, the car was made to be driven
06-03-2014, 01:38 PM
#32
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some of the numbers you guys posting are 
insane. 
I paid pennies on the original sticker for a 14 year old 968 screamer, NC/FLA car [in Feb 2008], 77k miles, all paperwork and 13 k in receipts.... at the time, [now 120,000 miles ago], you could eat off the engine... I got a lot of miles down the road with this thing [including over 60 trips over 1000 miles and dozens more over 400 miles], before it became a money pit and I garaged it for the V8 swap at 198 k miles....
I had a good friend with a new factory 944T back in the day... I learned from him that 40~60 K miles is a lot of miles for a 944T back when they were new..... Porsche was so thrilled with their 4 cylinder Turbos, they stopped production.
my skepticism of the 944T started then. and nothing on these forums has ever helped convince me otherwise [that they're anything other than low production, semi-exotics with lots of issues].... if you got a good one, fantastic. you're in the minority... they've all but disappeared from the roadways – but not because their owners didn't enjoy driving them.
for most of the 26~28 year old virtual or soon-to-be basket-case cars offered for sale – they're not in the middle of a proper maintenance schedule... far from it.... rather, they have lots of crusty, aging hoses and plastic parts that need to be replaced, head gaskets ready to go, and most of the cars would benefit from having the wires gutted and harnesses/sensors replaced. and the neglect shows. there's no car on the internet where more people post about calling the tow truck or their latest can't-solve-it/SOS no start.
and last but not least, the clutch. dear God if it goes.....
get a 996. if you can't afford one, maybe you can't afford a Porsche... much less one with a Turbo badge.
for a few more dollars, I can be in much newer, nice Boxter S with fresh LN ims.... a little more and I'm in a 2006 Cayman S... and a car who's wires have never been chewed up by mice sitting in someone's back yard.
insane. I paid pennies on the original sticker for a 14 year old 968 screamer, NC/FLA car [in Feb 2008], 77k miles, all paperwork and 13 k in receipts.... at the time, [now 120,000 miles ago], you could eat off the engine... I got a lot of miles down the road with this thing [including over 60 trips over 1000 miles and dozens more over 400 miles], before it became a money pit and I garaged it for the V8 swap at 198 k miles....
I had a good friend with a new factory 944T back in the day... I learned from him that 40~60 K miles is a lot of miles for a 944T back when they were new..... Porsche was so thrilled with their 4 cylinder Turbos, they stopped production.
my skepticism of the 944T started then. and nothing on these forums has ever helped convince me otherwise [that they're anything other than low production, semi-exotics with lots of issues].... if you got a good one, fantastic. you're in the minority... they've all but disappeared from the roadways – but not because their owners didn't enjoy driving them.
for most of the 26~28 year old virtual or soon-to-be basket-case cars offered for sale – they're not in the middle of a proper maintenance schedule... far from it.... rather, they have lots of crusty, aging hoses and plastic parts that need to be replaced, head gaskets ready to go, and most of the cars would benefit from having the wires gutted and harnesses/sensors replaced. and the neglect shows. there's no car on the internet where more people post about calling the tow truck or their latest can't-solve-it/SOS no start.
and last but not least, the clutch. dear God if it goes.....
get a 996. if you can't afford one, maybe you can't afford a Porsche... much less one with a Turbo badge.
for a few more dollars, I can be in much newer, nice Boxter S with fresh LN ims.... a little more and I'm in a 2006 Cayman S... and a car who's wires have never been chewed up by mice sitting in someone's back yard.
Last edited by odurandina; 06-03-2014 at 03:24 PM.
06-03-2014, 02:51 PM
#33
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Agreed. That $15k Turbo S is a low mileage, papered car with ALL maintenance up to date. Basically get in it and drive it, not needing to do anything.
Otherwise the starting price for a "good" Turbo S that has some mechanical needs will be $10k and depending on what the PPI uncovers it could sell anywhere from $6-8k.
Otherwise the starting price for a "good" Turbo S that has some mechanical needs will be $10k and depending on what the PPI uncovers it could sell anywhere from $6-8k.
[QUOTE=bonus12;11412804]black944 turbo, you ask why should a 951 be worth 30k?
Because of the engineering it has, the classic style, and the brand name.
Speaking of living in a free market, which really isnt as much as you might think, we must understand the the free market doesnt always assess value correctly. Take gold for example. How long has the free market been trying to determine the price of gold?
One more thing, theres no reason for the value of other porsches to change just because the 951's value changes! It should go up! To $30k!!![/QUOTE]Responding to the two red highlights.
Brand name - are you an enthusiast or poseur? Brand name is a reputation that is earned. The 944 earned its reputation, hence, its low value.
Your 944 worth 30k and not affect the value of other Porsches. Sorry, the others are better, so a rise in the 944 as a car (it is not a collectible) will raise the value of better cars. Supply and demand, free market, you probably didn't understand the point i was making with my reference to a first kiss, so I will explain. Others who have kissed many pigs, and kissed many gems have an objective way to measure which car is better. That translates to the market price. GLWS on your subjective 30k 944.
Next time you look in the mirror, tell me if the sky is blue?
06-03-2014, 05:49 PM
#34
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I am very unclear on why many of you guys post on this forum if you hate these cars so much. As for the 944 series and unreliablility, most of it stems from people doing one of two things; moditying them poorly and running the **** out of them or not maintaining them. I know a lot of people, myself included that have been around these cars for a long time and have owned one for a long time and feel that if maintained and watched after they are fairly reliable. Are they as reliable as say my old Volvo with a B230, HELL NO, but are they as reliable as a lot of the BMW s or other Porsches from the era, I would say YES. I for one feel that these car will be worth something one day, however as others have said that day is not today!!! I still feel from all of the cars that I have seen, driven, ridden in and owned that this series is one of the best all around cars available.
I also think that many of the posters on this thread have owned several 944 series cars, but have never owned one long enough to undo the poor maintance from prior owners or seen the car through the end of the tunnel to make it a good car.
This is my $.02 and you can have it for what it is worth.
I also think that many of the posters on this thread have owned several 944 series cars, but have never owned one long enough to undo the poor maintance from prior owners or seen the car through the end of the tunnel to make it a good car.
This is my $.02 and you can have it for what it is worth.
06-03-2014, 06:52 PM
#35
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cuz the 968s are good kit tubs and I couldn't afford a Ferrari 360 [for a future chevy v8 install].
ahhh, then if we run the LS motors at 700 hp for 200 k miles, we get to say the same....
"lack of maintenance and neglect doomed another engine."
but seriously, I defer to the automotive 101 handbook;
it's a Goddamned 4 cylinder. can't run a 4 cylinder for 20 years and not blow up.
how do you cheat death? change out the rodbearings... and other tricks in Porsche logic.
ahhh, then if we run the LS motors at 700 hp for 200 k miles, we get to say the same....
"lack of maintenance and neglect doomed another engine."
but seriously, I defer to the automotive 101 handbook;
it's a Goddamned 4 cylinder. can't run a 4 cylinder for 20 years and not blow up.
how do you cheat death? change out the rodbearings... and other tricks in Porsche logic.
06-03-2014, 07:37 PM
#36
I have only had my 951 for about a year, so by no means am I as experienced as some others on this board. However, I find the entire financial discussion to be nonsensical. If you want an investment, buy gold, invest in Apple, or buy some mortgage backed securities. I hear some people did really well with the latter. 
A decent rate of return was not why I purchased a 25+ year old car. I bought a toy, to be worked on, tweaked, improved and most of all - played with. I have absolutely zero expectation of getting any sort of financial return on this purchase - in fact I expect to spend more money on it over the next few years just to get it 'right' before I even think about mods. My value will be based on how often I laugh out loud while driving this thing, the solid feel of a shift (like a bolt action rifle), the crackle of the exhaust on the over run. Did I mention the perfectly positioned pedals for a heel and toe downshift? Not saying that I can do it, but the pedals are there...
I have wanted one of these since I was in high school and now I have one, and fully intend to enjoy every minute of it - whether I'm driving, or crawling under it, or getting yelled at by my wife while I have the dashboard dismantled all over her dining table.
To the OP: fair is what you and the seller determine. Everything else just noise and data - you decide which is which. If you get the car, this forum is a great resource to help you deal with the various issues that will invariably come up, but I am not turning the management of my 401K over to these guys.
My advice - do what makes you happy. Get a car that suits your plans / driving style, and drive the #€@ out of it.
I do not regret getting mine at all.
That being said - I am not in a position to spend $20K+ on a toy. Do what makes sense for you, but arguing over a few hundred dollars will be immaterial over the life of the car. It will be a money pit, but if you are like me, you won't care (much).
My previous cars were a 16 valve Golf GTI (stolen) and an E30 BMW (totaled). I tweaked and modified those as well, and would still have them if I could. I will keep this one as long as I can keep it running.
A decent rate of return was not why I purchased a 25+ year old car. I bought a toy, to be worked on, tweaked, improved and most of all - played with. I have absolutely zero expectation of getting any sort of financial return on this purchase - in fact I expect to spend more money on it over the next few years just to get it 'right' before I even think about mods. My value will be based on how often I laugh out loud while driving this thing, the solid feel of a shift (like a bolt action rifle), the crackle of the exhaust on the over run. Did I mention the perfectly positioned pedals for a heel and toe downshift? Not saying that I can do it, but the pedals are there...I have wanted one of these since I was in high school and now I have one, and fully intend to enjoy every minute of it - whether I'm driving, or crawling under it, or getting yelled at by my wife while I have the dashboard dismantled all over her dining table.
To the OP: fair is what you and the seller determine. Everything else just noise and data - you decide which is which. If you get the car, this forum is a great resource to help you deal with the various issues that will invariably come up, but I am not turning the management of my 401K over to these guys.
My advice - do what makes you happy. Get a car that suits your plans / driving style, and drive the #€@ out of it.
I do not regret getting mine at all.
That being said - I am not in a position to spend $20K+ on a toy. Do what makes sense for you, but arguing over a few hundred dollars will be immaterial over the life of the car. It will be a money pit, but if you are like me, you won't care (much).
My previous cars were a 16 valve Golf GTI (stolen) and an E30 BMW (totaled). I tweaked and modified those as well, and would still have them if I could. I will keep this one as long as I can keep it running.
06-03-2014, 07:38 PM
#37
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Od, I agree that there are some potential issues, however a lot of it is greatly over stated. The bottom line is rod bearings do not affect most cars that are not tracked. A lot of other cars have issues when you start tracking them, so it is unfair to state that the car is unreliable based on issues like this.
As for LS engines, I don't think anyone will discount this engine. I think it is an awesome powerplant that is a lot cheaper and easier to maintain than a Porsche engine (this goes for any Porsche engine). It also has a lot of potential for power and really has very little drawbacks, however this swap is not for everyone. I for one would love to have a second 951, 968 or 944 with a swap, but it still changes the charecter of the car and this is not something I want to do with my long time 951.
BTW, I would love to see pics of your swap!!!
As for LS engines, I don't think anyone will discount this engine. I think it is an awesome powerplant that is a lot cheaper and easier to maintain than a Porsche engine (this goes for any Porsche engine). It also has a lot of potential for power and really has very little drawbacks, however this swap is not for everyone. I for one would love to have a second 951, 968 or 944 with a swap, but it still changes the charecter of the car and this is not something I want to do with my long time 951.
BTW, I would love to see pics of your swap!!!
06-03-2014, 08:30 PM
#38
You guys should have fun with some of these. 
http://bringatrailer.com/2013/11/25/...e-944-turbo-s/
http://bringatrailer.com/2013/11/23/...tory-race-car/
http://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/...4/1606975.html
http://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/...4/1640758.html
http://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/...4/1649597.html
http://bringatrailer.com/2013/11/25/...e-944-turbo-s/
http://bringatrailer.com/2013/11/23/...tory-race-car/
http://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/...4/1606975.html
http://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/...4/1640758.html
http://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/...4/1649597.html
06-03-2014, 08:58 PM
#39
Just more fun data points worth noting.
Sold for $79,200 in 2012
Sold for $79,200 in 2012
924 sold for $385K - http://cars.uk.msn.com/news/world%E2...=1300#image=18
944 sold for $308K - http://cars.uk.msn.com/news/world%E2...=1300#image=22
968 sold for $346K - http://cars.uk.msn.com/news/world%E2...=1300#image=20
944 sold for $308K - http://cars.uk.msn.com/news/world%E2...=1300#image=22
968 sold for $346K - http://cars.uk.msn.com/news/world%E2...=1300#image=20
06-03-2014, 09:16 PM
#41
The Turbo S was no different than any other Turob S other than it had really low miles.
Mostly, people are looking at junky cars. Its funny that junky 911s of the same ear go for 5X as much and require just as much or more to get sorted.
The ones posted are just interesting data points to show that someone out there thinks that the 944 body/heritage is worth some big bucks.
Mostly, people are looking at junky cars. Its funny that junky 911s of the same ear go for 5X as much and require just as much or more to get sorted.
The ones posted are just interesting data points to show that someone out there thinks that the 944 body/heritage is worth some big bucks.
06-03-2014, 10:15 PM
#43
Three Wheelin'
I just see the 944 being the most undervalued car on the market. That is, it's the best bargain. That hunk of metal parts should simply sell for more than 2-5k or whatever it is for the NAs. It's not about the market or what the market thinks.
The fact is, the car is an amazing deal for how fun it is to drive, how rare it is, how amazing it looks, how fast it turns, and how comfortable it is. And I will venture to say that the turbos are a bit fast, and are certainly attractive to the aftermarket upgrades crowd. Not to mention, its a sexy porsche.
You don't need to be a poser or enthusiast to see at first sight that Porsches are more desirable than some other brands. This is to say that the brand name is worth some money in itself.
I am actually a little perplexed at why you can get a turbo for $4k. Worst case, you do your own labor and put 4k in parts in to have an amazing condition turbo that should last for years and years without major maintenance. The car at this point, after some fun wrenching and $8k, is quite a car and what kind of cars can $8k get you? Not a 250hp+++ Porsche 944 turbo with top 5 handline and leather seats.
You just can't beat it! That why the 944 is going up in value. Right now, its as cheap as it can go and itll ever go, and the market will adjust to the inherent value of the 944. We have all seen the charts that show how collectible cars (yes the 944 is one) experience a low-point in value at a certain age and then a subsequent rise in value. Where is the 944 exactly and when will the value finally increase? I think these are the questions.
The fact is, the car is an amazing deal for how fun it is to drive, how rare it is, how amazing it looks, how fast it turns, and how comfortable it is. And I will venture to say that the turbos are a bit fast, and are certainly attractive to the aftermarket upgrades crowd. Not to mention, its a sexy porsche.
You don't need to be a poser or enthusiast to see at first sight that Porsches are more desirable than some other brands. This is to say that the brand name is worth some money in itself.
I am actually a little perplexed at why you can get a turbo for $4k. Worst case, you do your own labor and put 4k in parts in to have an amazing condition turbo that should last for years and years without major maintenance. The car at this point, after some fun wrenching and $8k, is quite a car and what kind of cars can $8k get you? Not a 250hp+++ Porsche 944 turbo with top 5 handline and leather seats.
You just can't beat it! That why the 944 is going up in value. Right now, its as cheap as it can go and itll ever go, and the market will adjust to the inherent value of the 944. We have all seen the charts that show how collectible cars (yes the 944 is one) experience a low-point in value at a certain age and then a subsequent rise in value. Where is the 944 exactly and when will the value finally increase? I think these are the questions.
06-03-2014, 10:23 PM
#45
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I have only had my 951 for about a year, so by no means am I as experienced as some others on this board. However, I find the entire financial discussion to be nonsensical. If you want an investment, buy gold, invest in Apple, or buy some mortgage backed securities. I hear some people did really well with the latter. A decent rate of return was not why I purchased a 25+ year old car. I bought a toy, to be worked on, tweaked, improved and most of all - played with. I have absolutely zero expectation of getting any sort of financial return on this purchase - in fact I expect to spend more money on it over the next few years just to get it 'right' before I even think about mods. My value will be based on how often I laugh out loud while driving this thing, the solid feel of a shift (like a bolt action rifle), the crackle of the exhaust on the over run. Did I mention the perfectly positioned pedals for a heel and toe downshift? Not saying that I can do it, but the pedals are there...
I have wanted one of these since I was in high school and now I have one, and fully intend to enjoy every minute of it - whether I'm driving, or crawling under it, or getting yelled at by my wife while I have the dashboard dismantled all over her dining table.
To the OP: fair is what you and the seller determine. Everything else just noise and data - you decide which is which. If you get the car, this forum is a great resource to help you deal with the various issues that will invariably come up, but I am not turning the management of my 401K over to these guys.
My advice - do what makes you happy. Get a car that suits your plans / driving style, and drive the #€@ out of it.
I do not regret getting mine at all.
That being said - I am not in a position to spend $20K+ on a toy. Do what makes sense for you, but arguing over a few hundred dollars will be immaterial over the life of the car. It will be a money pit, but if you are like me, you won't care (much).
My previous cars were a 16 valve Golf GTI (stolen) and an E30 BMW (totaled). I tweaked and modified those as well, and would still have them if I could. I will keep this one as long as I can keep it running.
A decent rate of return was not why I purchased a 25+ year old car. I bought a toy, to be worked on, tweaked, improved and most of all - played with. I have absolutely zero expectation of getting any sort of financial return on this purchase - in fact I expect to spend more money on it over the next few years just to get it 'right' before I even think about mods. My value will be based on how often I laugh out loud while driving this thing, the solid feel of a shift (like a bolt action rifle), the crackle of the exhaust on the over run. Did I mention the perfectly positioned pedals for a heel and toe downshift? Not saying that I can do it, but the pedals are there...I have wanted one of these since I was in high school and now I have one, and fully intend to enjoy every minute of it - whether I'm driving, or crawling under it, or getting yelled at by my wife while I have the dashboard dismantled all over her dining table.
To the OP: fair is what you and the seller determine. Everything else just noise and data - you decide which is which. If you get the car, this forum is a great resource to help you deal with the various issues that will invariably come up, but I am not turning the management of my 401K over to these guys.
My advice - do what makes you happy. Get a car that suits your plans / driving style, and drive the #€@ out of it.
I do not regret getting mine at all.
That being said - I am not in a position to spend $20K+ on a toy. Do what makes sense for you, but arguing over a few hundred dollars will be immaterial over the life of the car. It will be a money pit, but if you are like me, you won't care (much).
My previous cars were a 16 valve Golf GTI (stolen) and an E30 BMW (totaled). I tweaked and modified those as well, and would still have them if I could. I will keep this one as long as I can keep it running.
I'm happy to finally have a Porsche after dreaming for one for 50 years.
Here's mine:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1986-Porsche...p2047675.l2557
Not sure what I will do with it, the engine seems strong, but the lure of the LS conversion haunts me...