Hi all,

I am looking for an advice about 944 turbo that I am seriously considering.I am coming from the BMW world, and really looking forward to own a true driver's car. Your feedback would be highly appreciated as I am trying to figure out how much that 951 in question is worth as there is no set price. I also want to be fair to the seller.

Here is the story:

My neighbor, an older gentleman has a guards red 951 that I have noticed been sitting most of the time. In fact it sat for almost a year, outiside... Nice Southern California weather helps, but sun did not help the paint on the roof.
After I left few notes under the wiper showing my interest in perhaps buying the car, or helping with it, the owner contacted me and explained that due to his bad back, he is unable to drive the car anymore. We agreed to meet and talk about it and we did yesterday. I was able to start the car and drive it a little. He loves his porsche and it sounds like I passed the car guy test as he is willing to sell me the car. He planned on autocrossing it and prepared it this way- never really had a chance. He gave me service records to review.

Here are the details:

Good:
-Mostly all records, going back to mid 90's. Car was meticously maintained with oil changes every 3K, transaxle oil changes,plugs, filters every 15K. 3 owner car, 1st from new to 1997, then 1997-99 and current owner from 99 on.
- New headgasket (machined head too, no valve job) due to coolant loss, new radiator and most (if not all ) hoses, heater valve.
- Leakdown within 1-2% and compression at 143-145 before headgasket was done (sounds to me like a coolant leak turned into an unnecessary hg replacement?) I have never seen such good numbers on the motor where hg is blown.
- Newer alternator, starter, most of the cooling system, some seals here and there, window regulator (passenger), brakes, myriad things here and there (time switches, coolant switches, plug wires, etc).
- newer motor mounts and many gaskets/hoses, so there are no obvious leaks.
- Good seals and glass- very clean interior.
- no dash cracks
- updated (but tastefully) sound system
- Keskin 17x8/17x10 old school mesh wheels (with 235/275 falkens).
- Bilstein/Eibach coilovers (torsion bar removed- 400/500 lbs.ft rates).
- Clutch replaced with Cup clutch kit and associated parts around 60K miles ago.
- 3 inch exhaust, new catalyst and recent 02 sensor.

Bad:
- High mileage- 197K. The car was maintaned very very well. When started after sitting for 8 months oil pressure went right up to 4 bars or so. Not too mention it started with no trouble (other than needed a jump). He says it's at about 40 psi hot.
- At idle I hear a sound like leaky exhaust manifold/tapping. Kind of a tapping but not too noisy. At the level of a valves needing adjustment but not as noisy as worn out cam. Sounds like a valve lifter tick maybe? Or injectors?
- Airbad lights are on
-Faded paint on the roof and rear bumper, car was keyed (not too bad but noticeable enough), few small dents here and there and stonechips on the nose panel.
- Car sat for almost a year
- Prior accident in the front (2000), seemed to be mostly cosmetic, paint is better and I have receipts- does not seem to have any structural damage. Hood lines up nicely.
- A/C is old R12 and empty
- Belts are 7 years old (only 20K miles old) - tension was checked about 3 years and 5 K miles ago- Do they need to be replaced ASAP?
- Waterpump is around 100K miles old, turbo cooling pump sometime then too.
- Sunroof is not working (gear needs to be replaced)
- Driver's side window is slow and does not go all the way down I think.
- Clutch pedal does not come up all the way, but clutch works. I would guess that extended sitting during the last few years ( 2K miles in 3 years or so) killed slave/master cylinders and/or hoses. Maybe just air, but brake fluid looks OK and is not more than few years old according to records.
- Aging out tires and other consequences of the car sitting on the sun for extended amount of time.

The car has always been in Southern California and has zero rust. Hatch does not leak. Body is very straight, but could use a repaint. I really like the car and not too scared of maintenance as I do everything myself ( maybe not the clutch, but did clutch on BMW's without the lift of shop equipment) I think I can manage 951. It is worth it
The question is- how much the car is worth? The seller is very upfront and honest man. The car was not for sale, until I bugged him number of times. He also realized that he will no be ever able to drive it. Property management was also ticketing the car for not being moved. He never meant to sell it and took care of it as much as he could.

I want to be fair with my offer, on the other hand I do not want to overpay too much.

Thank you very much for your input. It is highly appreciated. Hopefully I will join in the conversation here soon

Max
BMWCCA 286638
1973 Karmann Ghia Coupe
1981 BMW 320i
1999 BMW M3
2011 BMW 128i - For sale

 

Sounds like a nice car. Don't run it anymore though until the belts are replaced. In this neck of the woods that car would bring 7-9K, but in your neck of the woods its probably a different story.

 

Condition is king on these cars. From the brief description it sounds like 5 to7 thousand dollar car that needs a lot of immediate maintenance.

Good luck.

 

Using your math he will be into a 200k mile car for close to 12k before he blinks. I would start your calculation with 1,000 for the shell, plus the cost of parts installed in last 20k miles, plus say half of what you can sell some of the extras (ie. coilovers) for.

 

Thank you everyone for your feedback.
I know he had mentioned $8K after I pointed out some issues. It was before I reviewed service records and assuming that it needs no maintenance other than routine fluid changes. It sounded OK to me at the time. He remembers servicing it recently (based on mileage) he believed that it's good to go. What it looks like - it need full service with all the fluids, belts and probably hoses and other rubber hoses etc under the hood that look old. That, even assuming I am doing all the work myself (still have to get tools for belts and parts) - getting it on the road would cost me $1000 at least. And I need to have it smogged too...
Sounds like $6K would be a fair offer? $5K is probably a good price and what he could reasonably sell it for.

Thank you,
Max

 

I think its really too bad when members of our own community (I mean us, the 944 owners) always say, "oh that car is worth less because yadda yadda." Fact is, we own and love these cars and its time that we value our cars for what they are really worth. We are half of the market on these cars, and when we always advise people to beat the price down, what do we think will happen?

With that said, I wish op the best of luck. And op, you will have an amazing 951, so don't worry about getting ripped off. These cars -- the turbos -- should sell for $25-30k.

 

I agree with you. But the bottom line is if the car is very clean (sounds like it is) than it is worth what it is to you. $1000 for a running 951 is not even in the realm of reality and $1000 for a near perfect shell with a near perfect interior is still not even close. I wish you the best of luck and feel that the price I posted earlier (if it is clean) is in the proper realm.

 

Don't mean to change the direction of this thread, but I agree with you too. The suggested prices seem somewhat accurate for the market, but the market is so low in large part because we seem to have the attitude that "you are overpaying because there is $1000's in problems with every car." However, $3-5k in repairs is not much when the car is worth $30k, as it probably should be.

 

Thank you for your feedback. Coming from BMW land where values of some cool and rare models are still low (think is 70's 3 series, 80's 5/7 and even 6 series) and values of some other cool and rare models (think 2002 and E30 M3) skyrocketed simply due to the buyer's market, I understand 944 vs 911 situation and agree that watercooled models are undervalued, where aircooled 911 being an amazing machine may be a bit... overvalued for what you get. I agree that 951's should be $30K, 944 turbo IS the car of the 80's...That's why I want one, even though I know it will always be broken
But business is business and market is what it is now. Sounds like $6.5-7K would be a good price, I will talk to the seller and see if he will cut me a break because of belts that must be done. He was under impression that they are still good for a while...

Thank you again!
Have a nice rest of the weekend!
Max

 

Go on Craigslist in your region and check for 944 Turbo asking prices. Generally, '87 cars go for about $1K more than '86, perhaps due to the wider selection of wheels without adding spacers to '86 cars, unless it has Fuchs wheels.

From the selection of available Turbos, knock say, 10% off asking prices to get to ballpark selling prices, as typically people don't sell for full askig price. Knock off some more for the high miles and for the red paint--red paint is very common and not very durable, and the market is flooded with red cars. Adjust positively or negatively for recent or needed clutch, head gasket, AC, etc.

 

Mxxl, from your perspective I couldnt agree more. Of course when I bought my 944, I found the best deal I could. In any case, I think you are buying at the time. I can't see 951 prices going down any lower despite a shrinking used-parts inventory because we enjoy the support of parts makers in our community, who are likely to grow in number as more parts are needed. Again, a great time to enter the market!

 

I do not see any difference between years as far as prices go unless we are talking 88s models or 89 as they are S spec. Just an fyi at least in my area.

 

Max, your 3 posts are about the best newcomer posts I've yet seen.
You're both knowledgeable and appreciative.. kudos.

Offer $6,895 firm since he will dearly miss his beloved and is offering you exclusive/no competitor first rights to buy.

Change belts asap and take him for a nice ride and a dinner at Applebees..
He did you a solid if he sells..

Welcome!
-mikey

 

So, that makes me wonder, what are our cars worth to us? Surely RL is an enthusiastic bunch and we may value our cars higher than market, but how much*would you NOT sell your 944 for?

I would not let go of my 951 for less than 11 G's right now. I am not looking to sell, but I would only consider offers above maybe 11 G's.

 

1. Advising someone not to overpay is not beating the price down. There is a difference between lowballing and fair market value. What will happen? The person will pay the fair market value.
2. If a 951 were to sell for $25-$30K, then what should the 996s that are selling for high teens go for? High $40s? Which if followed up the food chain would make a new Porsche about 5x more than it is today.
3. If you want to live in a free market society acknowledge the simplest elements of supply and demand. If the market says they are worth X, what rationale are you using to come up with your affirmative statement that they are really worth 4X?
4. Even if the OP "overpays", and doesn't worry about being ripped off, how do you know that the OP "will have an amazing 951"
5. The first girl I ever kissed was an amazing kisser. Even though I was very young, I swore she kissed better than anyone else could possibly kiss. What about you, and the first person you ever kissed? The first sports car you ever owned?