Lemming

Current setup - Koni Sports front and back with 200lb welts in front. M030 sways front and back. Car weighs in at 2450lbs without me in it. Running RA-1s (225/50/15).

Here's what I'm thinking:

Front - adding the Paragon adjustable ride height kit to the front and running 350lb springs. Also adding the racers edge adjustable camber plate.

Rear - Deleting the torsion bar and running the Koni 3012 coilover kit and 450 to 500lb springs.

Ok, anyone want to comment on this setup? I'm not worried about whether this is PCA legal since my car is already stripped, with AC delete and everything under the dash is coming out. If I ever do race it will be in the GTS challenge that only really worries about power to weight ratios.

This car is really just my DE vehicle. I currently am having problems putting power down in right hand turns and the back wheel is spinning. I know I'm going to have to think about an LSD in the near future.

924RACR

If you get to the range of 350# springs or stronger, you will need to deal with replacing all the rubber in the suspension (with something stiffer, be it bearings or plastic), or you'll be driving around all that flex. Strut top plates are pretty key in that package; might also have some benefit from a strut tower brace at that point too.

I'd certainly agree that you need to be at least that stiff for the track - I guess it gets into how much use will this car see on the street?

You also get into the shock question. Definitely Koni yellows aren't up to the job of handling that setup. BTDT. Consider something like the Ledas, but Bislteins are sure a lot cheaper if you can live with giving up the adjustability (I have) and just drive the car.

But of course, it's the LSD you need to fix the putting-down of power. If you've got a larger than stock rear swaybar, that's only making things worse for you...

Perhaps the best way to address your need for feedback would be to ask a) what is your budget? and b) what do you want the car to be able to do with the intended upgrades?

Lemming

Vaughn,

The car will see not street use, other than to drive to Barber motorsports which is five miles down the road. For all other tracks, the car is trailered.

My budget is $2500, which includes the cost of a camber plate. I am hesitant to go with the Paragon Products plate since you loose one inch of travel.

Objectives - lower the car to lower the CG. Get a very good track setup. I don't have a lot of horsepower, so I have to keep the momentum going through the turns, as you are well away of with your 924.

joseph mitro

i have the koni yellows with 350 lb - no problem. car drives on the street - it's a bit stiff but not jarring my teeth out.

here's my setup:
front - koni yellow with paragon ARHK; 350 lb hypercoil springs, KLA upper strut mount; weltmeister front bushings, 968 caster blocks, 27mm sway bar, -2.0 degrees neg camber, 1/16" toe out; 16x7 D90

rear - KLA coilovers, 275 lb hypercoil springs with stock torsion bars, 19mm sway bar set on soft; torsion bars reindexed, stock bushings, -2.5 degrees neg camber, 1/16" toe out; 16x8 D90s

i don't like the rear toe out, otherwise the car seems to corner and handle pretty well.

with your budget and car weight, i would go with the koni yellow front struts and the koni rear coilovers. i think this will leave plenty of money left for the racers edge camber plates, a good alignment, and some good bushings. the other option would be the escort cup setup that paragon sells - i think that sounds like a great plan for essentially the same money.

joseph mitro

after looking more closely at the escort cup setup, i would definitely do that.

http://www.paragon-products.com/prod...rt_cup_944.htm

you can specify your exact spring rate and get the paragon camber plates for just over $2000.

calculate your rear spring rate the way they suggest - or effective rate= real spring rate x 0.56

even with this you still have money left over for bushings and alignment.

Lemming

Chuck at Paragon says that the bilstein struts will not work on a 924S.

Matt Marks

If your interior is out - you're out of the PCA stock classes and into GT-4. Though, you're perfectly lega; (and will be well set up) for 944 Cup racing - see the link in my sig and visit the southeast chapter.

Whatever solution you choose, you're going to have to remove the t-bars to re-index or delete them. I would recommed removing the bars and having them machined down to about pencil size, and then re-install at the lowest possible ride height. This keeps you legal for most racing series, and will cut 20 or 30 pounds of unsprung weight. Then, add coilovers in teh rear to allow for corner balancing and ride height.

As for setup and coilover installation, contact Karl at the The Racers Edge. He has some spectaculary turned out 944s that regularly win PCA and 944 cup races. He should be able to point you in the rigght directions for bearings and coilovers. Standard disclaimer applies, as I've never done business with Racer's Edge, but I have watched his 944S2 spank 944 Turbo S's on a number of occasions.

Geo

OK.....

First of all, if this is a dedicated track car, don't even dick around with street car components. While the Koni yellow street performance dampers won't do the job, you can get race dampers from Koni that will certainly do the trick. You can use 8611 strut inserts up front and either 3012 or 8212 in the rear. All of those are race dampers and should do the trick fine.

For springs and t-bars, go for some 500 lb or more springs in the front and 32mm or larger t-bars. You can get the t-bars from Paragon. I realize you will drive a short distance on the street to get to Barber, but I still wouldn't mess with any street performance suspension. For little if any more you can get race stuff. Oh, and for front Dampers Paragon has some DA Koni coilovers that fit the late suspension. I don't know if the 924S uses these or not, but if it does, you don't even have to worry about building the front struts.

joseph mitro

for my own edification - what's the difference between koni yellow and koni race shocks? different bump and rebound?

Geo

Koni race dampers are yellow as well. Yellow signifies "sport" for Konis. However, they have what amounts to "performance street" dampers and true race dampers. The commonly used yellows are just performance street dampers. The 8611 strut insert (usually requires building a strut) and 821 or 3012 rears are true race dampers. They are all double adjustable as well.

Vaughn and I have recently had a long conversation about 924/944 suspensions and we've both observed that most people just use basid street products when it comes to sping rates, t-bars, and dampers. For dedicated track cars these are really wimpy. We run higher rates on our Sentra SE-R with KYB AGX struts. Vaughn is going for 600 lb or so fronts and 34mm rear t-bars. I have 32mm t-bars and wish I had bought at lesat 33mm, but I'll try the 32 even though I expect I'll end up with 34s. I was being a bit of a wimp and wanted to err on the side of slightly too soft rather than slightly too hard.

For dampers I have been waffling between Koni 8611/8212 and Advance Design DA gas dampers. I like the idea of the DA gas dampers, but Koni has a long and proven history. Right now I'm leaning to the Advance Designs. Tomorrow it may be the Konis again. I'm so wishy-washy.

Anyway, be aware there are much better solutions out there than the commonly used ones. I think there is a strong "lemming" mentality out there among the 924/944 track crowd. I'm looking forward to hearing Vaughn's experience with his set-up and as soon as I can sell 3 sets of wheels I have I'm going to order my dampers.

924RACR

Koni race shocks should be more durable; the yellows just shrivel up under that abuse (BTDT).

I forgot the Escort setup is 951 style. Get those rear coilovers, they will fit, of course. For the front, you need the Bilstein VW A1 Group II Race struts, Part # V36-0103:
http://www.eshocks.com/bil_vehR.asp?...+Race&Manf=All

They're 36mm monotubes, can't beat 'em with a stick. Valved 230/80 outta the box for $260 each, or spend $55 per extra to have them revalved at your will. For a front spring rate of 400#, Bilstein Motorsport recommended to me to go with around 400/125 valving. 230/80 may be a bit of a stretch. Oh, yeah, they're complete bolt-in strut replacements, threaded-body set up to use 2.5" race springs. These are very similar in setup to my 933 front struts.

Bottom line, I'd 100% agree with Geo's emphasis on not dinking around with half measures - you'll only end up wasting money in the long run.

HTH...

924RACR

Shoulda figured we'd be overlapping our replies!

Bill Hindorff at Bilstein pointed out that my current damping (for my current 400#/30mm setup) is within the margin of tuning for going up to the 660#/34mm setup - IOW, close enough that I can swap parts without revalving, and just tune from there. When it's time for me to revalve the fronts, I'll be buying a set of the 36mm front struts mentioned above. As it relates to tihs discussion, this means that I will be running my first event this season with my current setup (to establish a baseline on the 6" rims and 205/55/15 tires I expect to run for the rest of the season). I'll then switch over to the 660/34mm setup for the following race weekend (1 month later) to get the best possible comparison. You'll also be happy to hear that I'm running full AIM DAS system (Mychron3) to get full data for comparison.

I also plan, first weekend out, to swap out two tire setups; the 205/55/15's mentioned (Michelin Pilot Sport Cups, little use) and the same old Hoosier R3SO3's I've been running for a while. It'll also be interesting because while the Hoosiers are older than the Pilots, they are 225/45/15's. I just have to figure out how to cram on those old dried-out tires onto far too small of a rim! LOL If nothing else, we'll get plenty of data...

Geo

OMG, I didn't even realize the alias of the original poster was "Lemming."

Lemming

Guys, thanks for the comments and here are a few more specific questions.

1. There's a lot of discussion about thicker torsion bars, but if I'm going with coil overs, isn't it better to either delete, go smaller, or leave the same? My thinking is that a delete saves the most weight, but may make me illegal for some racing circuits. Going to pencil size saves weight, but I still have to reindex. Staying the same, all I have to do is reidex.

2. As for the bilsteins (VW A1 Group II Race struts, Part # V36-0103), will they fit the 924S (S being the important point) struts? And would you pair them with the paragon ride height kit?

Lemming mentality, hardly, afterall, I own a Pheonix Yellow M3, and went for the 924S, not the 944

Geo

Probably so. Vaughn and I are IT racers and as such we are required to use t-bars so that is where our thinking is. Just convert the wheel rate from t-bars to bars and coilovers.

Tim, I was hardly picking on you. The point is, ask a bunch of 944 DEers or even a lot of racers about suspension and you'll get a lot of people telling you 400lb fronts with 30mm t-bars and usually some derivative of some street performance damper. Very few really go beyond this, yet there are a lot of options beyond this and for little to no more money. And it's not because it's the best option. All Vaughn and I were saying is if your car is track only (except a very short drive to the track) go for a proper track set-up.

BTW there are some 951 guys who have gone well beyond the "lemming" set-up, but you don't hear much about it.