Manning

Yeah, exactly. I don't know why but at some point every time these to transplant/turbo/supercharge arguments come up some chode always says "no way man, you have to replace your suspension and brakes because that's what Porsche did when they built the 951". Whatever. Unless you're hauling your car down from 150 mph at every turn and spinning 18" wheels I don't really think there is a huge issue. And while I realize Porsche 'improved' the later spindles, if the old ones are such a problem we better all go out and replace them right now, this very minute. Times a wastin'.

Like I wrote earlier, moot point.

Matt H

Better option that the SC by far.

It is much more practical to do a 3.6L swap than it is to buy a 993. You are talking a few thousand dollars vs. 35-40K dollars. HUGE price gap. Does not exist with the 944->951.

Lag is how people without turbos compensate for being slow. They say, yeah but the lag...at no point on a dyno does a stock 944NA make more power or tq. than a stock 951. Even with the SC the power and tq. are only minimally more (on current kits) and they are quickly (within 500RPMs) dwarfed by the fact the 951s with mods make 2 times the power and tq.

AZN - this post is EXACTLY my point. 3-4K dollars to get ALL the way to 200HP (and you are right most would be happy with this). Sell your NA and add 3-4K to the selling price and you can have a 951 (unless your NA is a POS and then why would you spend 3-4K to SC it?) that already makes that much power. Pop 500 bucks and you are making well more than that. With the Turbo you also get (like icing on cake), better suspension, better brakes, stronger transaxle, etc. It make no economic sense to spend 4K SCing a car to make as much power as a stock 951 makes. 944J thinks he can push 24 psi, fine, go ahead, car wont last 4 weeks.

And both needed a TON of work. One of them was also not had for 2K dollars, if you will recall. The buyer claimed that but it was not true.

Mike you are right R&P would be trashed. AZN makes a point about how you drive but who spends 4K dollars to SC a car to drive it to get groceries? If you did that much work you are going to be on it a fair amount.
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Manning

You grenade a R&P by launching hard and hammering the teeth into each other, not by simply 'being on it'. I think there are the fair share of turbo trannies with blown out R&Ps so this also isn't that fair a criticism.

By the way, I'm actually not to hot diggity on the SC idea. I'd actually rather gladly spend thousands of dollars figuring out what can be done to these motors in an NA state, or just drop in a 951 motor.

L8 APEKS

That's where price comes into play, and that's the whole reason we're talking about an *affordable+ S/C kit.

There is no reason why a 944 can't be S/C'd and intercooled for $3k. So let's say the car itself cost me another $3k. That gives me a theoretical/potential ~175 whp 944 for $6k.

Now, I do agree that you might be able to find a healthy 951 for $6k, but often they can cost between $7k-$8k, depending.

Soooo...while the S/C 944 in this example may not be a better buy from just a numbers standpoint, it's at the very least competitive in terms of power/dollar/fun. And what's icing in the cake here is that many 951's for sale claim to be "rare" cars in their ads. Well, not nearly as rare as a S/C 944.

For some of us, standing out in the crowd and being unique is worth an extra $1,500 or so, and that might be what evens out the cost. Besides, for the vast majority of people on this board, the amount of money spent on our cars is NOT AT ALL a logical figure.

I too would feel like I was copping out if I dropped a 951 motor into a 944. I'd feel like the ultimate wanna-be. At least I'd be doing something unique spending a few more bucks and a little more time with a supercharger, and the performance is certainly comparable.

Matt H

The first sentence is partially correct. I have toasted 3 R&Ps in NAs. Only one was a matter of clutch dumping.

Not that many turbo trans with blown R&P and most of them are making a LOT more power than stock.

Yep, the best 3K dollar 200 HP solution is a 3.0L swap or a 951 swap.

You will sell as many at 3K as you will at 4K, somewhere more than 1 and less than 5. Be realistic. Not many people dying to spend 3K dollars on a 3K dollar car. While we are on the topic, is 3K really a lot less money than 4K?

Whatever you say. I suppose you can do it for that. You could make your own manifold, use a used blower from a Tbird or the like, buy some used injectors, a use intercooler, and cobble a kit together and you MIGHT be under 3K. If you are using new parts that is not going to happen. Further, there are plenty of decent 6K 951s that make more than 175 bone stock.

To me a 7-8K dollar 951 better be in DAMN good shape. Not pristine, not concour but REALLY REALLY good.

It isnt going to be competitive in terms of power. And car that has been cobbled together is not "rare." 951s are "rare" comparatively speaking. FWIW, you will have a very hard time selling an SCed 944 unless it looks perfect under the hood and I dont think that can be done for the money you are talking about.

Remember you are unique, just like everybody else. I have spent about 4 times what my 951 cost and because of the winter I still dont have it running. I could have bought a nice 993 for what I have in my 951, I understand the principal. However, I did that because they dont build what I want. They DO build what you want.

I dont know where you guys get this stuff, the performance of a modified SCed 944 NA is no where near the performance of a chipped 944 Turbo. Not even close. You wouldnt be a wanna be, you would be smarter than the average bear.
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Carl Fausett

As a manufacturer of short-production-run supercharger kits for the 928, I think you are mistaken. Unless what you call a "kit" is a headunit and some barckets ( I have some competitors like that). By the time you include the braided feul lines, metric fuel fittings, FMU, crankcase ventilation system (you didn't forget that did you?), ALL the pulleys (not just the crank pulley - but the new auxillary pulleys), higher-flow fuel injectors, and much more - I think you will bust a 3k budget.

I have personally developed 3 of these NA-to-SC Porsche kits from scratch.

If you can get'r done for 3k.... go for it!

my84-944

I agree with you Carl,
Performance costs $$$$$$$$. There is no such thing as free HP.
I also wanted to bring up another point about this LS1 hybrid or whatever you all are calling it. This has poped up a few times in this post as a way to get more from a 944 na than the others, SC, etc..
Looking at a few other posts and doing some reaserch, I have heard that Porsche tried not only a V-8 but a V-6 in the 944 before choosing the I-4 or 2.5 whe now have. If Porsche thought that a V-8 would not be determental to the ballance of the 944 I think they would have left it in. Besides You can also just buy a V-8 Porsche...it is called a 928.

944J

I posted a picture allready and it is rough but perfect for experimenting on. It would be harder to experiment on a perfectly good car.

my $550 944na

944J

its allready in this post that the torque tubes are the same

honestly the biggest different between the 944 and turbos for daily driving (not racing) is the turbo, pistons, front bumper... (I'm saying its not that much IMO)

944J

I'd rebuild if I knew how... where's the step by step instructions with pics online and I can do it.

944J

yep my 2nd gear is gone in my stock 944NA

944J

You aren't paying attention.

No one ever said that a na make more anything than a turbo. I'm not talking about kits. Do you know that the primary purpose of a kit is? It's to make money for the person who makes it. If you want the best you have to do it yourself.

I didn't say what I would do. I said that the Kenne Bell superchargers can create 24psi just as efficiently as a Turbo can.

So you agree but then always say but, but, but. So what if they needed work? You can do a ton of work yourself for less than the $15k that you are talking about to get a 951 and mod it out.

My recommendations arent for the doctors and lawyers who can get their hands dirty. They should just buy a gt3 or a carrera or pay huntley to do their 944.

But if you want:

1) to spend the least amount of money possible
2) make a really fast and fun car that will out accelerate a stock or slightly modded 944 Turbo 0-60

Then a good (not the only option) is to lower the compression of your 944na engine, add a positive displacement twin screw supercharger with intercooler, bigger injectors, electronics, $500 951 transmission, other goodies.

I agree that 944 Turbos arent priced too high or anything like that, but I drove a stock $6k 944 Turbo and it felt exactly like my 944NA with a little extra push in. Not impressive for being the almighty "Turbo."

Face it a modern Honda Accord out powers a 944 Turbo.

944J

the turbo and na engine are the same besides the compression, slap the turbo stuff on a low compression na and you wont know the difference

944J

Hardly any of the stuff you mentioned is needed using the whipple/kenne bell units. Myabe recommended, but not needed. There is a difference between making your car as tight as the space shuttle and just doing what is needed.

I can bust a $10k budget to make a 300rwhp supercharged 944 and still spend less money than the average smart bear who bought a $10k 951 and modded it out. I'd also have better suspension, brakes, lighter body panels.

944J

Porsche didn't go with them because of expense reasons too, not just the balance issues. The ls1's weigh less than the 951 engines. Don't think that Porsche alway put the best or most powerful stuff on their cars. They are a business that needs to make a profit. Profit, not performance is the bottom line for Porsche. Thats why their 924 race cars made 400hp and their for sale cars made like 90hp.