GTgears

In the GT3 and Cayman forums guys are pretty good about tagging them OT. I have no problem with the threads themsves since they are about specific models and this is a model specific forum. In the 20 years I've been hanging out on car forums I've always ignored the keep it on topic *****. Sure, if someone is struggling with a problem on their car you don't want to take his thread off into the weeds. But a thread like this? If guys want to get in side conversations, let them.

If we were all at the pub sitting around a table, not all 15 guys would be having 1 single conversation. Why do forums have to be manipulated into something that isn't like our real lives? I enjoy the community and don't enjoy when anyone tries to impose rules on our connecting as people.

I'm going out for a drive. Have a nice ay guys.

Amber Gramps

That speaks volumes about the cars themselves. If you want to see constant tech posts go to the 944 forums where you would think they had Lucas electronics. Odurandina counted 700 forum members that posted "Help" threads then simply stopped posting when they realized there engine was a POS. For the most part our cars are strong and surviving well.

911Dave

Sorry we have to disagree on this, Matt. The problem is that these are not side conversations, they are the main conversation because it does not work to have multiple conversations in the same thread. The reason we have multiple threads in a forum is so that each thread has its own, and only one, topic. That way people don't have to keep wading through all the conversations just to find the one they want to follow. It's a waste of time to do otherwise. This is what happens when guys in a bar have more than one conversation. Each person is only engaged in one of the conversations at a time and they choose which one to be a part of.

I agree there are too many non-technical threads in this forum and also on Pelican. There is an extreme lack of moderation both here and there, which I find annoying. I put up with it because there's nothing I can do about it except bitch.

GTgears

Dave,
I have heard that argument for 20 years. It doesn't ring true to me anymore now than it did back then. This thread is on page 12. The topic had run it's course by page 4. What are you really hoping to learn when you click into this thread now?

As I said, you won't find me chattering like this in a real active conversation about something technical. But this thread doesn't fit that bill. It was a rerun of 20 other near identical threads that have occurred both here and on Pelican. There was really no new information presented and after so many months and 12 pages there won't be much new information again. The only mildly relevant information was Richard's auction updates and even those were mostly top if the market collector cars and turbos. The turbos arguably aren't even relevant to SC, Carrera and other air cooled values.

I'm sorry if the side conversations annoy you but I really just don't see the harm in a thread like this one.

Mondrian

As values rise so will the nature of threads .... as an examole remember seeing a post by someone in the 964 turbo section in reply to a technical turbo mod question, reply was ... "this is a predominantly a spit & shine section look elsewhere"!

Jherriott

Wha? I've never had a problem with my 951 in my 17 years... Not even brakes or clutch. And to be quite honest it kicks the living crap out of my 911. But, I'm one of those rare guys that loves all 80's Porsches equally.

(Although it would have to be a 924 GTR)

hot-J

I also think my 951 is far superior to the 911. Whatever floats your boat I guess.... BTW, who wants to buy a 77 Targa 3.0?

Amber Gramps

I'll admit to enjoying my time finishing up the build of Odurandina's LS7 powered 968, but I also won't be going anywhere near another one in the foreseeable future. What was Porsche thinking?.

cobalt

Couldn't agree more. Since I started my track build I have been working with a local shop that IMO has the ability to pump out some top quality work with some cars breaking records at auction for a reason.

Over the past year I have watched and helped with numerous Air cooled 911's which have gone through the shop from assorted customers.

I have seen customers who flip cars bring in some I personally wouldn't touch. They pay for a quick windows in respray while the rest of the car needs tons of work. They get a nice face lift but suffer from many hidden issues the unknowing wouldn't know to look for. At the same time far more cars are being restored to nearly new condition. These cars were driven and cared for most of their lives but showed their age and use needing a fresh coat of paint. Then there are the accident damaged cars that don't go through insurance and the owner pays a ton to have major reconstruction of the tub to factory spec and reworked to a level only the most knowledgeable can detect any work was done.

I can go on but these three examples will do; I ask when was there a time when buying these cars any different? This has been going on forever it is just happening on a larger level now because there is money to play with. It has always been buyer be "aware" or get taken with these cars. It is now at a level of value that the good cars are being refreshed and the bad cars are no longer as easy to tell apart. The true quality maintained, like new condition cars, driven or not, without hidden issues are few and far between and if you sell you can't replace them without risking never finding another or paying up for them.

Back to the bubble and what makes these cars an investment. It isn't as though this is specific to the air cooled 911 market. Lets face it new cars today aren't what cars of the vintage we are discussing are about. As they become quicker more green and feature oriented. Vintage cars are becoming more appreciated to those that still consider the driving experience as something more than transportation with blue tooth and ventilated seats or a million HP and traction controlled AWD just to keep it on the road.

IMO these cars will always have a place in the hearts of the enthusiast and investors alike. As the manual gives way to PDK the 6 cylinder to a 4 cylinder bi-turbo these cars will find more people interested in cars that were designed to be driven instead of be driven by their cars.

Every car I have purchased be it daily driver or 911 has been some form of investment in time, money and desire to learn as much about them as possible. I learned early on with my first SC that if you buy the right car, keep it properly maintained and cosmetically clean you will not loose money and if I could afford the right cars could potential make money. But that has no bearing on whey I purchased the cars I did. I wanted the best of what I felt to be were some of the better cars they ever pumped out. There are many I would love to add but I can only focus on so many at a time. There are very few cars that could replace what I chose and feel I made an upgrade at any price point. What floats the individuals boat is their preference.

Everything associated with these cars are becoming investments as well. Shop manuals literature and used parts can be a profitable business and there are a number on these forums that make money flipping this stuff. Fact is if your coming to the game now you have to see it for what it truly is. You either pay up for the car that fits your criteria, change/adjust your criteria or buy a rat and plan on attempting to rebuild it. Lastly buy a 928 Just kidding. The right 928 is next to rise IMO.

A rat or a nicely refreshed car will probably cost you about the same in the end, but if your handy can be somewhat affordable assuming you educate yourself properly to do the job justice. If you are that into it you may end up with a very nice clean car.

The truly clean original cars will continue to climb in value assuming they are continuously maintained and cared for. Lets face it how many truly exist and how many will exist in the future?

The only thing that has changed is the numbers are larger and will continue to grow so long as the money is still there. Many of the better cars are still less costly than a new Lexus and will continue to hold their value. IMO I am happier with the values climbing as I would rather see these cars brought back into circulation than just sit and rot or worse be parted out.

I always keep my eyes open for a good deal they are out there but becoming quite scarce. Most of them I have seen are in plain sight but more times than not the deal seems to good to be true and people run or discount it. At the end of the day it is still just a pile of metal and if you decide to buy and keep or buy and flip that is up to the individual, if you buy solely as an investment you take your chances and you better know what your buying.

So that was a lot of hot air but I have invested more time into my cars than I care to admit and I for one saddened that the value makes me nervous to do some of the things i did in the past with these cars but I see no reason why these cars aren't double what they are going for today. IMO the truly cherry cars are worth every penny and more and those stupid enough to over pay for crap deserve what they get.

I'm not sure what to say about this.

GTgears

Tony,
I think you cover it really well. There have always been owners willing to spare no expense to keep a car in perfect condition. And there have always been guys who own a car they can't afford to maintain. And there have always been dealers and flippers ready to take them and move them. The 911 market is where 356s were 12-15 years ago. Look at those cars now. 6 figure condition 1 SCs are becoming reality.

Freddie Two Bs

It's already there. 8k miles '83 coupe, museum-quality. 6 digits ask.

GTgears

I wound assert one does not make it so. It is still happening versus it has happened.

Mondrian

I know of a 964 with 9k miles that sold circa $125k

ForceReconTrojan

Curious to what this even means?

911Dave

If you like that, you'll love this. 80k mile '88 cabriolet that's a condition 2 for $145k. Granted it's a Commemorative Edition but that should only count for a 10% premium or so:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/191686814589?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
No bids. Imagine that!