911 with an American alumnium v-8 small block?
08-22-2002, 02:43 AM
#76
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As a fleet mechanic I just had to pipe in.
1. A vehicles longevity has more to do with the preventative maintenance that it receives.
Example: We have 10 Chevy Citations (84's) that are in excellent condition.
2. Every manufacture produces problems.
3. It's just a car.....
4. 911's design wise are very simple car's.
The engines transaxles suspension etc are all easy to work on. The OHC VS pushrod debate is meaningless, a simple conversion to roller valve train will enable most pushrod motors to exceed the upper rev limits of a OHC motor. Of course everything depends on proper design and preperation regardless of motor type.
Chris
1974 3.2L conversion in progress.
1. A vehicles longevity has more to do with the preventative maintenance that it receives.
Example: We have 10 Chevy Citations (84's) that are in excellent condition.
2. Every manufacture produces problems.
3. It's just a car.....
4. 911's design wise are very simple car's.
The engines transaxles suspension etc are all easy to work on. The OHC VS pushrod debate is meaningless, a simple conversion to roller valve train will enable most pushrod motors to exceed the upper rev limits of a OHC motor. Of course everything depends on proper design and preperation regardless of motor type.
Chris
1974 3.2L conversion in progress.
08-22-2002, 06:47 AM
#77
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Okay, it's obvious that many of us have conflicting opinions, most of which are educated. We could go back and forth about the pluses and minuses of each camp forever, nobody is going to change anybody's mind.
However, to anybody who believes the 911 engines are flawless or have a huge lead over other engines, there is a proponderance of evidence otherwise. There are many well documented problems with the 911 engine, pick your problem: cooling issues, shifting cases, pulled headstuds, oil leaks, poorly designed exhaust systems, exploding airboxes, etc... No I am not saying that 911 engines are junk, and again I am not trying to get back into German vs. American debate, just pointing out that the 911 engine is flawed just like every other engine.
John Kuhn2: Regarding pushrods, you seem to forget that VW, along with EVERY other car company, commonly used pushrods at one time or another, there is nothing wrong with them. Yes, they do absorb a TINY bit of power, and an alternate complexity, but you have to know that they are used for a reason. GM, for example, could have gone to OHC setups some time ago, Actually, I hope you know that GM (my mistake, it's actually Ford that makes the most) makes more OHC engines than ANY other company. Ever looked at a Cadallac or Olds V8? Anyway, GM uses pushrod V8's for packaging purposes and cost reductions.
For packaging, how do you think they get such a low hoodline on the Corvette? Yes, they managed it with the ZR1 that had DOHC, but that engine was very costly to design, part of the reason being that they had to pay attention to the low profile cylinder heads. OHC engines are either taller or wider, there is a size penalty for having OHC. Additionally, you have to have longer chains or belts to drive the cams, and the longer the chain or belt, the more likely you are to have a failure... I won't even mention streach.
In terms of cost, pushrod engines tend to be cheaper. A brand new 325 HP LS1 engine, complete w/ computer is about $5400. A 996 engine with 320 HP, but far less torque, costs about $12,000 for a USED one on Ebay. Part of the price disparity comes from the scale of production... but, even if Porsche made 200,000 996 engines a year I have my doubts that they would sell for as low as $5400.
Actually, as an aside. The GM pushrod LS6 makes more power than the DOHC LT-5 engine did. The LS6 costs about $7000, the LT-5 cost $18,000.
Anyway, my point is that pushrods are not bad... I have no doubt that even Dr. Porsche would agree... he used em'. Ah, but to each his own.
Abdul
However, to anybody who believes the 911 engines are flawless or have a huge lead over other engines, there is a proponderance of evidence otherwise. There are many well documented problems with the 911 engine, pick your problem: cooling issues, shifting cases, pulled headstuds, oil leaks, poorly designed exhaust systems, exploding airboxes, etc... No I am not saying that 911 engines are junk, and again I am not trying to get back into German vs. American debate, just pointing out that the 911 engine is flawed just like every other engine.
John Kuhn2: Regarding pushrods, you seem to forget that VW, along with EVERY other car company, commonly used pushrods at one time or another, there is nothing wrong with them. Yes, they do absorb a TINY bit of power, and an alternate complexity, but you have to know that they are used for a reason. GM, for example, could have gone to OHC setups some time ago, Actually, I hope you know that GM (my mistake, it's actually Ford that makes the most) makes more OHC engines than ANY other company. Ever looked at a Cadallac or Olds V8? Anyway, GM uses pushrod V8's for packaging purposes and cost reductions.
For packaging, how do you think they get such a low hoodline on the Corvette? Yes, they managed it with the ZR1 that had DOHC, but that engine was very costly to design, part of the reason being that they had to pay attention to the low profile cylinder heads. OHC engines are either taller or wider, there is a size penalty for having OHC. Additionally, you have to have longer chains or belts to drive the cams, and the longer the chain or belt, the more likely you are to have a failure... I won't even mention streach.
In terms of cost, pushrod engines tend to be cheaper. A brand new 325 HP LS1 engine, complete w/ computer is about $5400. A 996 engine with 320 HP, but far less torque, costs about $12,000 for a USED one on Ebay. Part of the price disparity comes from the scale of production... but, even if Porsche made 200,000 996 engines a year I have my doubts that they would sell for as low as $5400.
Actually, as an aside. The GM pushrod LS6 makes more power than the DOHC LT-5 engine did. The LS6 costs about $7000, the LT-5 cost $18,000.
Anyway, my point is that pushrods are not bad... I have no doubt that even Dr. Porsche would agree... he used em'. Ah, but to each his own.
Abdul
08-22-2002, 09:51 AM
#78
King of Cool
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Thanks Thom,
That makes sense, but I still think that's not enough because radiator(s) can't do too much. Even if there's two, they can't hold too much water. Maybe 50 lbs? That would make it 45/55 - 46/54?
We're getting closer though... But it's getting harder too...
That makes sense, but I still think that's not enough because radiator(s) can't do too much. Even if there's two, they can't hold too much water. Maybe 50 lbs? That would make it 45/55 - 46/54?
We're getting closer though... But it's getting harder too...
08-22-2002, 12:26 PM
#79
Alfizzo, Have you ever drove a 500+ horsepower 911, I don't think so. Well I have and they are freekin dangerous. If a 3.2l Carrera doesn't cut it for you on a strait line try driving one around some twisties and if you know how to drive you will see how well you can outperform any Dodge, Chevy or 928. If you want a 500+ HP car to drive on a strait line build yourself a 65 Chevelle or 911 V8 conversion. I am sure you wont be able to take it all out on some twisties without wiping out.
08-22-2002, 12:55 PM
#80
Rennlist Lifetime Member
Man I hear that....At 607 if I was under partial throttle and came up a hill and create a load the car would come on boost so quick that the tires would cut loose in a heartbeat without warning. So imagine this, driving home late half awake minding my own business and WHAM car is two lanes over without warning. In less than 700RPM I would double my HP. If I was running and had it locked down in second gear the car still mid way through the gear if would lift at all in the rear would be all over the road at 80+, that sure seems cool, but try driving it without taking the guy out across the lane from you or destroying your car. HP is fun, but sometimes not as fun as you think and not something I wanted my sons to ride in....Give the car a purpose and stick with it. My old car is now on the track, but the guy is having a hard time with it because power comes on so quick that he is all over the road. He needs to turn the boost down <img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" />
08-22-2002, 04:28 PM
#81
Alfizzo, in response to your last post, the reason I mentioned a Camaro is because it's designed for a V8, and will accomodate a tranny and other drag-oriented components capable of handling the 650-800 H.P. that you need to feel like a man.
My point was that you could get more than sufficient h.p. (imho) out of a Porsche engine. Ofcourse, that's not enough for you. To each his own.
Good luck, and I hope you don't kill anyone.
My point was that you could get more than sufficient h.p. (imho) out of a Porsche engine. Ofcourse, that's not enough for you. To each his own.
Good luck, and I hope you don't kill anyone.
08-22-2002, 07:31 PM
#82
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It is pointless, this debate. If Porsche wanted to make a cheap, 1950s technology motor that made its horsepower through HUGE displacement, it could do so. They obviously engineer the engine to the car for a great balanced package. If going really fast for cheap $$ is your goal, then go buy a $10,000 motorcycle. We could all blast by anything on a fast sport bike. If I was looking for a cheap fast car, I would probably buy a Vette too, but personally I don't think they are built to last, I mean the interior looks no different than an entry level Cavalier.
Comparing the cost of a GM motor to a Porsche motor is crazy. One is made in Germany, the other here. Obviously German labor rates are much, much higher, but so is the quality.
Go ahead and keep your roller rockers and the like, the fact is that overhead cam setups are more efficient and have fewer moving parts. Who cares how many OHC engines GM makes? They make more cars, of course they make more engines along with them.
Comparing the cost of a GM motor to a Porsche motor is crazy. One is made in Germany, the other here. Obviously German labor rates are much, much higher, but so is the quality.
Go ahead and keep your roller rockers and the like, the fact is that overhead cam setups are more efficient and have fewer moving parts. Who cares how many OHC engines GM makes? They make more cars, of course they make more engines along with them.
08-23-2002, 01:16 AM
#86
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Just out of curiosity how many of you who posted to this thread actualy work in the automotive trade.
If so how long and what type of ASE certs do you have.
I would like to get a better idea of who can actualy provide usefull and technicaly correct information.
Chris
If so how long and what type of ASE certs do you have.
I would like to get a better idea of who can actualy provide usefull and technicaly correct information.
Chris
08-23-2002, 02:20 AM
#87
[quote]Originally posted by yellowbusman:
<strong>Just out of curiosity how many of you who posted to this thread actualy work in the automotive trade.
If so how long and what type of ASE certs do you have.
I would like to get a better idea of who can actualy provide usefull and technicaly correct information.
Chris</strong><hr></blockquote>
Not a flame here, just my opinion.
It is rather ignorant to base another persons level of knowledge on what certification, job or even college degree they hold. As my own brother, a mechanical engineer can attest, I probably know more about engines and how they work than most of the guys he works with. Many of them got engineering degrees and therefore jobs engineering cars not for their interest in cars but rather for the money that these jobs pay. I rebuilt the engine on my go-cart at the age of ten using a book my father gave me on small engine repair and the tools he either gave me or loaned me. My father until his recent retirement was a mechanical engineer for NASA, I am a Chef by trade but my current career is working in R&D for a small adhesives company started by a leading scientist in the field, he has taught me far more about chemistry and adhesives in the past four years than I could have ever hoped to learn in college. I have taught myself how to weld, use machine tools, mechanical design, and have developed excellent troubleshooting skills based on this knowledge. With 22+ years of working on mechanical things as my first love I feel far more competent than any "green" ASE certified individual as well as many of the more experienced ones. Their is no mechanical job that I'm afraid to tackle and I constantly tinker and modify everything mechanical around me. It takes far more than a job or certification in the automotive field to be mechanically competent, what it takes is a deep understanding of how things work as well as a love for things mechanical. I wouldn't ask the mechanic at the local garage to set me up with a new cam profile for an engine I'm building because he'd most likely have no clue where to start but ask other racers, people who are in it for enjoyment and I'll get several excellent opinions, a lot of knowledge and even some past experience. So I ask you, do you think I'm qualified to have an opinion in this thread?
Christian Sokolowski, Mechanically Minded.
<strong>Just out of curiosity how many of you who posted to this thread actualy work in the automotive trade.
If so how long and what type of ASE certs do you have.
I would like to get a better idea of who can actualy provide usefull and technicaly correct information.
Chris</strong><hr></blockquote>
Not a flame here, just my opinion.
It is rather ignorant to base another persons level of knowledge on what certification, job or even college degree they hold. As my own brother, a mechanical engineer can attest, I probably know more about engines and how they work than most of the guys he works with. Many of them got engineering degrees and therefore jobs engineering cars not for their interest in cars but rather for the money that these jobs pay. I rebuilt the engine on my go-cart at the age of ten using a book my father gave me on small engine repair and the tools he either gave me or loaned me. My father until his recent retirement was a mechanical engineer for NASA, I am a Chef by trade but my current career is working in R&D for a small adhesives company started by a leading scientist in the field, he has taught me far more about chemistry and adhesives in the past four years than I could have ever hoped to learn in college. I have taught myself how to weld, use machine tools, mechanical design, and have developed excellent troubleshooting skills based on this knowledge. With 22+ years of working on mechanical things as my first love I feel far more competent than any "green" ASE certified individual as well as many of the more experienced ones. Their is no mechanical job that I'm afraid to tackle and I constantly tinker and modify everything mechanical around me. It takes far more than a job or certification in the automotive field to be mechanically competent, what it takes is a deep understanding of how things work as well as a love for things mechanical. I wouldn't ask the mechanic at the local garage to set me up with a new cam profile for an engine I'm building because he'd most likely have no clue where to start but ask other racers, people who are in it for enjoyment and I'll get several excellent opinions, a lot of knowledge and even some past experience. So I ask you, do you think I'm qualified to have an opinion in this thread?
Christian Sokolowski, Mechanically Minded.
08-23-2002, 03:10 AM
#88
2nd Gear
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i am thinking of installing a cummings turbo deisel in my 911. think about the serious mileage and towing capabilities i will have.
P.S, the deisel engine is better engineered than my porsche engine.
P.S, the deisel engine is better engineered than my porsche engine.
