Carlos

Nice to see some sanity out here. Good points guys. It might come as a surprise to some but I think Porsche has some pretty damn impressive engineering. I just don't think that Porsche is the only company with impressive engineering.

J.P.

As a tech I have to admit that American engineering has improved from all the 1980's and early 90's. American production sportcars all have major flaws whether its the the materials they use to build their cars, the brake systems, the suspension, etc. I have been trained by GM and Ford and I do not like to work on them. I also have a lot of experiance on 911's and I know that they are more durable and reliable sportscars. If anyone wants to argue this with me and believes otherwise they can visit me at my shop and see the problems of American cars vs. 911's. If American cars where so great we wouldn't be driving 911's. The stoping distences and handeling of American sportscars is terrible, who cares about 1/4 mile runs.

t.p.

I think the point of the thread was whether one should put a V8 in a 911 as a more cost-effective alternative to keeping an aging 911 going. Sure, a 350 can produce h.p. much more cheaply than a smaller displacement flat-6, however, the cost of buying a V8 and then installing it (correctly)would be much, much greater than rebuilding a nice 3.2 (up to 250+ reliable h.p.)or swapping to a 3.6 (up to 300+ reliable h.p.) or 3.3 turbo (350+ reliable h.p.).
Unless you were gonna go all out like George (I figure he's dumped at least $50k into that conversion when all's said and done), then why bother? Porsche engines, although smaller, are better engineered and are fast enough.
If drag-racing's your thing, then buy a car with a V8.

John..

We still have yet to see performance specs from George's car. It is funny, George and Carlos must monitor this board to wait and see who is going to slam the pushrod V8 next. Otherwise we don't hear from them. George does have several alias names he uses on here though.

I still stand by the Kraut stuff any day of the week. The thought of pushrods and rocker arms makes me sick. The new 911 motors don't have either. The 928 and 944 never had either, and the original water cooled VW engines (i.e. from about 1974) never had either. The overhead cam and lifter cup directly over the valve has been used by VW for nearly 30 years, and is now used by a lot of other companies as well. If the pushrod technology of yester-year is so great, why do most of the new engines out there use the setup VW perfected 30 years ago?

As for turbo technology being cheating or torqueless.....well take a good hard look at the new Audi RS6 (yet to come to America). This is a twin turbocharged 4.2 liter V8 making 450 HP. It delivers peak torque from about 1900 rpm all the way up to around 5800 rpm.

If that doesn't satisfy you, look at APR's website. They have a stage 3 kit for the VW 1.8T that makes a very impressive 300 HP. For George, there is even a small video clip of a 1.8T GTI running through the lights at about 12 seconds.

Turbocharging is very impressive, that why EVERY big diesel rig uses it today. The US automotive mindset has always been to make it bigger. None of the big 3 can make a turbocharged car to save their *** (look at the 80s Chrysler turbos), so they resort to bigger displacement engines. Porsche, Audi and VW own the turbocharged marketplace for automobiles in the US.

Sorry guys, variable valve timing, fuel injection, electronic ignition, turbocharging etc., etc., etc. will beat pushrods, caurberators and rocker arms all day long.

The only GM engine I have ever been really impressed with is the Buick 3800. It seems like a real good long lasting (for an American engine) specimin. The Regal it cam attached to was a piece of **** however.

Flying Finn

[quote]Originally posted by John Kuhn2:
[QB]We still have yet to see performance specs from George's car. It is funny, George and Carlos must monitor this board to wait and see who is going to slam the pushrod V8 next. Otherwise we don't hear from them. George does have several alias names he uses on here though...QB]<hr></blockquote>

I still have yet to see how that 50/50 was achieved...

George, Carlos?

Carlos

Before you true believers get too euforic over the mastry of German engineering, read this quote from the 993turbo board:
My engine is in the workshop having new piston rings, head sealing rings, turbos and head overhauled. A leak down test revealed over 10% on most cylinders - approx 25000 miles since my last engine build, so it shows how these 500+ hp outputs wear the "consumables" pretty quickly. Interestingly, the engine still felt as powerful as ever on the road, I think the turbo engines will mask the leakage by using the boost to maintain the air mass required for the programmed power output.
I tentatively faxed RS Tuning to find out if they had any developements which I could use whilst the engine was stripped. Surprise surprise, I can spend some more money on new "Evo" turbos and cams and crate the motor back to Germany for remapping to give around 25hp more.
Whilst I was discussing this with my workshop, it transpired there was a 993 GT2 EVO 1 intercooler lurking about in the stores room. This I/C is the same thickness as the stock 993tt I/C but it has about 25% more surface area and utilises the pressure sensing type induction -I seem to remember the race cars giving 520hp with restrictors using this set up.
I am currently using a Cargraphic/FVD/TTP I/C which although bigger does not cool any better than stock.
I am waiting to hear from RS whether this GT2EVO1 I/C in conjunction with pressure sensing induction and their new turbos and cams is the way to go and how many wheelbarrows full of Euros they will want.
Like Perry Mason used to say "I rest my case."

George 911-V8

John Kuhn: First of all I don't have nor post other than george 911-V8. I have several good close friends that are very powerful people in the porsche racing community that have helped me put this car together. Without the help of these people I would still be lost in the dust. Rod Simpson and Kelly Moss Motorsports for one. My good friend Daniel a porsche master tech at the porsche dealer here in new orleans,la. Daniel is also a senior tech advisor for porsche north america in atlanta. Randy Greff of greff motors he has been building and racing porsches for over 28 years. Randy is top of his class in pca as we speak. All of these people together have helped make the swamp monster a top notch street/race supercar. They all will tell you in order for a porsche motor to be able to make the horsepower it needs to compete with the small block it takes about 45k just for the motor bottom line. Jeff Stone owner and builder of the Kelly Moss racing team doesn't have a car in his stable that can out run the swamp monster on the street, as far as track racing thats a little different story. I have made some very good strong lap times but I'm 3 seconds per lap off of the kelly moss 996,993 supercars, thats with street tires and the a/c on. Porsche motors don't have the power band that a race small block can make. My motor made 310hp at 3000 rpm on the dyno. I made power all the way through the rpm band to 7200 rpm peak at 554hp on just motor no spray. Porsche 993tt race motors make peak power at 5500-6800 rpm with peak power about 500hp give or take, just ask around. I only built this car for one reason to strap a$$ bottom line. I really don't care what porsche purist think, they already don't like me at the de's who cares. Mr. Kuhn it's been over 11/2 years with only one porsche that would even try to see if I'm all talk or not. He was at least brave, but not Stupid neither. I give him a tip of the hat for at least showing some *****. I have had many to try, but so far none to date have been able to stay in the same zip code. The swamp monster with the help of ALL THE PORSCHE MINDS involved above helped make it the best of both worlds. I have been offered 70k for the car turn key. I will sell when the project is 100% complete which will be real soon. As far as et times Mr. Kuhn I will say this 3.9 seconds 0-60 on the motor, you can do the math. I love porsches and yes I'm purist as much as anyone else on this board, but I just think there is always room for improvement and thats what I did. What is apple pie without the ice cream?


<a href="http://pws.prserv.net/4play/911chevy/index.html" target="_blank">SWAMP MONSTER</a>

Flying Finn

Geroge,

I believe you and have seen your car (Internet) but I'm honeslty curious about that 50/50?
I could use some tips how to achieve that?

t.p.

george, who is the cartoon character under your name?

Carlos

Flynn,
Step 1. get overall vehicle weight to 2949 lbs.
Step 2. arrange things such that 1515.8 pounds are on the rear wheels.
How this was done involves the installation of a high performance, light weight Chevrolet engine and assosiated components which I'm sure you would find similarly distasteful so I will spare you the gory details. But before you state your ill informed speculative opinion on this, why not place a call to Kelly Moss. Then you can explain to them why it's not possible.

Flying Finn

[quote]Originally posted by Carlos:
[QB]Flynn,
Step 1. get overall vehicle weight to 2949 lbs.
Step 2. arrange things such that 1515.8 pounds are on the rear wheels...QB]<hr></blockquote>

Gee Grlus, really? Is THAT how it can be achieved? <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" />

And in fact, that is NOT 50/50...

however, we already concluded that the engine swap made the ratio to about 43/57, so if George's startes & other similar components are really light (compared to Porsche items), maybe that's 44/56?

That remaining couple of hundred pounds weight move from rear to front is the interesting part.

I don't want to start calling Kelly Moss, seems that it would be easy for you to explain how it's done. (I'm sure there are many of us who'd like to get some info).

Why is it so hard to explain?

And BTW, when have I said George's Porsche Chevy is distasteful to me?

turbocarrera.

[quote]Originally posted by Carlos:
<strong>that piece of crap 6 won't produce 200 HP for 100k without needing a fortune in work </strong><hr></blockquote>
[quote]Originally posted by Carlos:
<strong>I think Porsche has some pretty damn impressive engineering </strong><hr></blockquote>

I just don't understand you, Carlos.

Brian911

Time for a newby to put my two cents in. Everybody has their own opinions about cars. From what I can see Porsche makes some awesome cars and their inginuity is one of the best. On the flip side we look at say...GM. They have been in buisness for a very long time and they seel way more than Porsche does. This is because they are giving people what they want. Some people like to have cars that are plastic and have a 1.0L.
I my self have a 1980SC 3.2, 1989 Acura Legend, and a 77 Chevy P/U 454. Which out of the 3 is running??? The Acura. The POrsche is down w/ what is believed to be the timing chain and the truck is down because I replaced the carb and I need a couple more things. My point is that both companies make awesome cars. I will not get rid of that Truck. It may be built like a brick **** house and get 8mi to the galon but it takes beatings after beatings and gets right back up. The Porsche I love because its something new to learn about. The timing chain issue I am going to farm out to a mechanic because currently I don't have the resources to do that but I do must of my work.
Can we just admit that all cars have problems and call it even? I thought this was a tech site for learning... not seeing who is pounding sand up who else's ***.

Brian
1980SC
<img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" /> <img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" /> <img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" />

Flat Six Addict

WHY ARE WE ARGUING WITH A CHEVY BOY???? THEY WILL FOREVER BE GROVELING OVER AN OBSOLETE PIECE OF 1/4 MILE CRAP.

Simply put Porsche's emphasis has never been completely on the engines. They have always had emphasis on longevity and handling. Which we all know that a Chevy is good for one thing and one thing only going straight really fast. Their brakes suck, interiors are ugly, bodies rust out faster than any other car on the market. Need I go on.

I drive a 76 Dodge Truck Full Time 4 wheel drive. That's my baby, lots of horsepower and torque for 4-wheeling exactly what a V-8 was designed to do. I've never figured out how to get it stuck, it's kind of like a mule. A fine example of American dinosaurs.

I would never even think of massacring the fine German marque with the likes of an American V-8. They're not even comparable. American cars eat parts (alternators, belts, OIL, GASOLINE... I could go on). Routine maintenance is cheap but lots of pennies add up to dollars. Whereas if you spend dollars once on German you generally don't have to spend pennies in between!! Unless you are an utter a complete mechanical perfectionist, which most P-Car owners are.

There's my two cents. <img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" />

John..

George,

Please post performance specs on your car, along with a dyno sheet. We all have yet to see documented performance with a dyno sheet. And, as you know, I just love giving you and Carlos crap.