911 with an American alumnium v-8 small block?
08-21-2002, 07:45 PM
#61
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nate
i love porsche. they are the best sports car for the $$$ on the market. however to get 650 to 700 hp out of a 911 engine would cost me 80K to 100K. in a chevy motor is about 15K. i have the best of porsches braking and tranny work done which cost more than you whole car. i want the fastest car on the road period. and the chevy conversion is going to get me there. by the way i had a 82 sc limited edition and a 928s4 and now the 911 conversion. its not my first time on the board. i just can not stand by and listen to the bs anymore.
i love porsche. they are the best sports car for the $$$ on the market. however to get 650 to 700 hp out of a 911 engine would cost me 80K to 100K. in a chevy motor is about 15K. i have the best of porsches braking and tranny work done which cost more than you whole car. i want the fastest car on the road period. and the chevy conversion is going to get me there. by the way i had a 82 sc limited edition and a 928s4 and now the 911 conversion. its not my first time on the board. i just can not stand by and listen to the bs anymore.
08-21-2002, 07:56 PM
#62
Alfizzo, the engine may cost $15k, but how about the conversion? Have you figured out that cost? To do it right would cost you $$$. Otherwise, you'll end up w/ a p.o.s. hack-job. Is that really what you want? Limit yourself to a usable h.p. number (why bother going over 500h.p.?) and it will be much cheaper in the end. Or buy a camaro.
08-21-2002, 08:22 PM
#63
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Ookayyyyyyy...
I have enjoyed everyone's posts, now I have to ask my question...
I agree that Porsche has some of the finest engineering in the world as far as drive train and suspension. Hands down. That being the case, how come the interior (materials, switchwork, ergonomics, etc.) is so CRAPPILY (is that a word?) engineered and has worse fit and finish than an '84 Cavalier?
Somebody, anybody?
I LOVE my Cabriolet and have YET to figure this out.
I have enjoyed everyone's posts, now I have to ask my question...
I agree that Porsche has some of the finest engineering in the world as far as drive train and suspension. Hands down. That being the case, how come the interior (materials, switchwork, ergonomics, etc.) is so CRAPPILY (is that a word?) engineered and has worse fit and finish than an '84 Cavalier?
Somebody, anybody?
I LOVE my Cabriolet and have YET to figure this out.
08-21-2002, 08:31 PM
#64
Three Wheelin'
Hello,
I think the ergonomics/quality issue is more of a 911 commentary than a Porsche one (I don't mean any offense by this, so please hear me out.)
I think I know where you are coming from - but on the water-cooled side of the coin, the 928's and 944's I have had the pleasure to drive (and own in a few cases
) Have all had fantastic ergonomics, driver position, etc. The quality is, in my opinion, not bad either - especially considering we are discussing cars that are nearly two decades old.
For the record, I've never seen a running '84 Cavalier.
<img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" />
Micah
I think the ergonomics/quality issue is more of a 911 commentary than a Porsche one (I don't mean any offense by this, so please hear me out.)
I think I know where you are coming from - but on the water-cooled side of the coin, the 928's and 944's I have had the pleasure to drive (and own in a few cases
) Have all had fantastic ergonomics, driver position, etc. The quality is, in my opinion, not bad either - especially considering we are discussing cars that are nearly two decades old. For the record, I've never seen a running '84 Cavalier.
<img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" />
Micah
08-21-2002, 08:34 PM
#66
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HAHAHAHA! Hey, it may not run, but the windows go up and down and the power mirrors work.
True, I was actually speaking strictly to the 911 (through 1994) crowd. I have a number of friends with the same vintages and it is a frequent topic of discussion.
True, I was actually speaking strictly to the 911 (through 1994) crowd. I have a number of friends with the same vintages and it is a frequent topic of discussion.
08-21-2002, 08:40 PM
#67
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FWIW, I am also a fan of the utilitarian design; especially the gauge layout. However, it just all seems so... flimsy. Thin leather, carpet made up of mats; I mean, jeez, my car was 35K new.
Again; NOT THAT I AM COMPLAINING, the Cab is my favorite car I have ever owned. I guess I just don't get the dichotomy in thinking and approach.
Again; NOT THAT I AM COMPLAINING, the Cab is my favorite car I have ever owned. I guess I just don't get the dichotomy in thinking and approach.
08-21-2002, 08:47 PM
#68
the 911 driving position is great. You're more upright and can see better. Visibility over the hood kicks *** (not like on a vette, viper, 928 or 280/300Z where you're trying to look over a huge hood while practically lying down), and the quarter windows provide a great view to the blind spots. My only problem is with the rear-view mirror, which I cannot adjust just right - i kinda have to scoot up to get a good look.
Qualitywise, I've seen some crappy SC interiors, but the one on my 930 and on the Carreras, 964's and 993's are really nice. The 996 interiors seem a little plasticky and cheap, however.
Qualitywise, I've seen some crappy SC interiors, but the one on my 930 and on the Carreras, 964's and 993's are really nice. The 996 interiors seem a little plasticky and cheap, however.
08-21-2002, 09:09 PM
#69
I love the guys who support being taken advantage of by Ford and Chevy who have basically been selling the same pickup trucks for 40 years (I own a bunch of them). I have friends who will only buy Ford trucks because of its "real" front suspension - which consists of configuration that, again has been unchanged since the dawn of time. The best job in the world is the marketing vp for Ford trucks division, and he knows why. Bye the way, anyone not understanding the corelation between the trucks and the cars, it is that again, they put the same block into EVERYTHING. Guess what the infamous Viper block (boat anchor) comes from?
08-21-2002, 09:09 PM
#70
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Lol, I honestly can't believe somebody started to seriously compare the highest volume vehicle company (GM) with a low volume German sports car manufacturer (Porsche). That is absurd nonsense. What's next, Wal-Mart vs. 7-Eleven? Everybody here needs to cool it down a few notches and watch what they are saying. You guys are verbally destroying two of the most famous engines of all time!!! I love the air cooled porsche flat 6 and the american v8. Both are excellent engines that have proved themselves on the track. Many people love to talk about how the corvette engine design is too old and that it isn't technologically advanced enough to compete with todays new engines. Bull****. Look what happened when they tried to improve the engine and put 32 valves on the car. Ever since they forgot about the ZR-1, good things have been happening with the corvette. Reguardless of what is under the hood, the car still performs with the world's best (and for far cheaper too). The air cooled porsche flat 6 is a great design that stayed around for years with constant improvement. For reliability, I would tend to go with the corvette. The corvette engine design is much simpler and has many fewer failure points. However, the 911 is very reliable for its complexity and is much more efficient than the american v8. Nevertheless, the corvettes engine reliability may be just a representation of the lower cost and ease of maintenance/repair that goes along with a corvette engine. From what I have seen, both engines will go the distance...but one usually takes more money to get there.
That being said, for fun I would probably take the Porsche nine times out of ten and possibly have a corvette for a daily driver.
That being said, for fun I would probably take the Porsche nine times out of ten and possibly have a corvette for a daily driver.
08-21-2002, 10:42 PM
#71
I just have to say something about this.
If you want to put a damn Saab Sonnet V4 in your 911, that's your prerogative. Some people have said that putting a V8 in a 911 "massacres" the car. Hey, it's not your car so don't worry about it. There have been a ton of 911's sold in the US and by no means are 911's an endangered species. What we are talking about here are TOYS (Porsches) so who gives a damn how much money we put into them and what happens to the resale value. I'm rebuilding and modifying the 3.0 in my 930 and will most likely end up spending in the range of 15-20K after all is said and done. Sure I could go with a juiced V8 for the same HP and might spend less with a conversion but I prefer the sound of a flat 6 and I also prefer the slightly delayed thrust of the turbo(in the 930) that will push me back in the seat all they way to 160mph. I know the turbo lag is extreme in a 76 930 but it won't be when I'm done. I can also say that I am going to put a modified LT1 motor in my TR7 convertible because I also equally like the massive low-end torque that it will produce but as for my personal preference, I wouldn't put the LT1 in the 930 nor would I put the Flat 6 in the TR7 but I would never presume to tell someone else what they should or shouldn't do with their car.
Moral of the story is do whatever the hell you want with YOUR car. Snotty assed purists really **** me off unless they do what they should MIND THEIR OWN @#&%ING BUSINESS!!!!!!! Be just as **** and pure as you want with your own car.
If you want to put a damn Saab Sonnet V4 in your 911, that's your prerogative. Some people have said that putting a V8 in a 911 "massacres" the car. Hey, it's not your car so don't worry about it. There have been a ton of 911's sold in the US and by no means are 911's an endangered species. What we are talking about here are TOYS (Porsches) so who gives a damn how much money we put into them and what happens to the resale value. I'm rebuilding and modifying the 3.0 in my 930 and will most likely end up spending in the range of 15-20K after all is said and done. Sure I could go with a juiced V8 for the same HP and might spend less with a conversion but I prefer the sound of a flat 6 and I also prefer the slightly delayed thrust of the turbo(in the 930) that will push me back in the seat all they way to 160mph. I know the turbo lag is extreme in a 76 930 but it won't be when I'm done. I can also say that I am going to put a modified LT1 motor in my TR7 convertible because I also equally like the massive low-end torque that it will produce but as for my personal preference, I wouldn't put the LT1 in the 930 nor would I put the Flat 6 in the TR7 but I would never presume to tell someone else what they should or shouldn't do with their car.
Moral of the story is do whatever the hell you want with YOUR car. Snotty assed purists really **** me off unless they do what they should MIND THEIR OWN @#&%ING BUSINESS!!!!!!! Be just as **** and pure as you want with your own car.
08-21-2002, 11:34 PM
#72
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[quote] American car owners would laugh at 1000 bucks for a timing belt @ 45000 mile intervals on a 4cyl 944. <hr></blockquote>
Huh.. cost me about $100 bucks. $200 if I decide to put a waterpump in it. A whopping $300 if I replace everything I remove to do the belts and seals. Not too bad of a cost since that is about 5 years of driving.
Now.. how much do the timing chains in GM motors run? According to my roommates 1998 Firebird manual, reccomended inspection / replacement is at 90,000. Bet that is not cheap when you add in gears and seals. It is all relative.
I am not a purist, but I still see tossing in a forign motor in a car is butchery. Put in a 5L 928 motor. That is more like it.
I don't think anyone has said that the good old pushrod GM motors don't make power. Hell, go to the track and see for yourself. The real problem is that you smack the the pride of the rest of us owners in the face.
It's your car, good luck.
Huh.. cost me about $100 bucks. $200 if I decide to put a waterpump in it. A whopping $300 if I replace everything I remove to do the belts and seals. Not too bad of a cost since that is about 5 years of driving.
Now.. how much do the timing chains in GM motors run? According to my roommates 1998 Firebird manual, reccomended inspection / replacement is at 90,000. Bet that is not cheap when you add in gears and seals. It is all relative.
I am not a purist, but I still see tossing in a forign motor in a car is butchery. Put in a 5L 928 motor. That is more like it.
I don't think anyone has said that the good old pushrod GM motors don't make power. Hell, go to the track and see for yourself. The real problem is that you smack the the pride of the rest of us owners in the face.
It's your car, good luck.
08-21-2002, 11:59 PM
#73
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maybe you can not read. or just have some mental incapacity. as i said before porsche 911 can offer world class handling and braking. its aftermarket parts and factory parts in these areas are just the best you can get. however a camaro has none of these traits so why mention a camaro. i do not think i can type slower so i will explain it to like this:
1. putting 650 hp in any 911 will have many tranny and suspension mods.
2. if you follow rods or renengades conversion the car will not get hack unless you are a hack your self.
3. you need time to get the desired level of fit & finish of the conversion and some mechaincal ablity.
4. i think the 80's are calling you to tell you that they want that 3.2 225hp engine back. tp, that is not going to cut it against the kid in a civic passing you... let alone the big boys tt z cars, c5 vettes, hopped up camaros and mustangs, 993tt&996tt, saleen, supra's etc. tp i do not know if you been out on the streets but 500hp might not cut it if you want the fastest car.
5. 15k is a good figure for the engine and converion. i did that math.
maybe you can not read. or just have some mental incapacity. as i said before porsche 911 can offer world class handling and braking. its aftermarket parts and factory parts in these areas are just the best you can get. however a camaro has none of these traits so why mention a camaro. i do not think i can type slower so i will explain it to like this:
1. putting 650 hp in any 911 will have many tranny and suspension mods.
2. if you follow rods or renengades conversion the car will not get hack unless you are a hack your self.
3. you need time to get the desired level of fit & finish of the conversion and some mechaincal ablity.
4. i think the 80's are calling you to tell you that they want that 3.2 225hp engine back. tp, that is not going to cut it against the kid in a civic passing you... let alone the big boys tt z cars, c5 vettes, hopped up camaros and mustangs, 993tt&996tt, saleen, supra's etc. tp i do not know if you been out on the streets but 500hp might not cut it if you want the fastest car.
5. 15k is a good figure for the engine and converion. i did that math.
08-22-2002, 01:37 AM
#74
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Hey George, long time no see!
George has a radiator(s?) up front, along with some other plumbing, so I'm guessing that's why he's at or close to 50/50. Umpteen gallons of water @ 7.5lbs per gallon...
George has a radiator(s?) up front, along with some other plumbing, so I'm guessing that's why he's at or close to 50/50. Umpteen gallons of water @ 7.5lbs per gallon...
08-22-2002, 01:59 AM
#75
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[quote] The vette or mustang groups would laugh their *** off. <hr></blockquote>
George- I think what you are finding hard to ignore is that most Porsche owners laugh our *** off every time we hear someone is thinking of putting a cheap V8 in their Porsche car as well.
It's down to the same old debate about Porsche versus powerful cheap car. For example a new Porsche 911 struggles to beat the old style WRX Sti in a straight race (0-60 times) while the WRX costs about 1/4 of the price (at least in Australia). Money for horsepower, the WRX obviously wins. However if I had to choose from a brand new WRX Sti, or my stock 1985 Porsche 944 (Australian spec) I would choose the 944 (unless I was allowed to sell either car I'd obviously take the WRX and sell it to buy another 944, 968 or 911). And I have driven both. The WRX Sti is quick and it gets the heart pumping, but if I actually have to use the car anywhere but a racetrack, and since I don't race my car, I'll stick with the 944.
[quote] I'm personal friends with Jeff Stone owner of Kelly Moss motorsports and he thinks the small block is the best move you can make for brut hp in a 911 bar none. <hr></blockquote>
He's probably right. But once again, not many people want "brute horsepower". If I wanted brute horsepower for the money I spent on my car I would not have bought a Porsche because they don't sell "cheap" horsepower. But I made the informed decision to buy a 944, and I've never looked back. Given the exact same amount of money to buy a car again today, given my current needs, I would buy exactly the same car and I bet plenty of other people here would too.
It must really eat you up, that so many of us are happy with our stock Porsche's.
George- I think what you are finding hard to ignore is that most Porsche owners laugh our *** off every time we hear someone is thinking of putting a cheap V8 in their Porsche car as well.
It's down to the same old debate about Porsche versus powerful cheap car. For example a new Porsche 911 struggles to beat the old style WRX Sti in a straight race (0-60 times) while the WRX costs about 1/4 of the price (at least in Australia). Money for horsepower, the WRX obviously wins. However if I had to choose from a brand new WRX Sti, or my stock 1985 Porsche 944 (Australian spec) I would choose the 944 (unless I was allowed to sell either car I'd obviously take the WRX and sell it to buy another 944, 968 or 911). And I have driven both. The WRX Sti is quick and it gets the heart pumping, but if I actually have to use the car anywhere but a racetrack, and since I don't race my car, I'll stick with the 944.
[quote] I'm personal friends with Jeff Stone owner of Kelly Moss motorsports and he thinks the small block is the best move you can make for brut hp in a 911 bar none. <hr></blockquote>
He's probably right. But once again, not many people want "brute horsepower". If I wanted brute horsepower for the money I spent on my car I would not have bought a Porsche because they don't sell "cheap" horsepower. But I made the informed decision to buy a 944, and I've never looked back. Given the exact same amount of money to buy a car again today, given my current needs, I would buy exactly the same car and I bet plenty of other people here would too.
It must really eat you up, that so many of us are happy with our stock Porsche's.