John..

This Horsecrap about a pushrod engine outlasting a German engine is complete BS. I mean come on, yes the 911 had its share of engine problems early on, with the bad studs, and the old Magnesium cases, etc., etc., etc.

Let's just look at the technology employed by GM over the years leading up to where they are today:

They still sue pushrods, and old and bad design by today's standards.

Their poor excuse for fuel injection in the early 80s was simply a caurberator with one large injector, basically a carb-injector. Only later did they go to real fuel injection, calling it "port-injection" to make it sound like something they came up with.

It still takes 5.7 liters of displacement to make any kind of real HP, since the specific output of these engines is not nearly as high as it could be.

The design of these engines dates back to the 50s. They leak oil, burn oil, require more attention and have a low specific output as compared to a Porsche Engine.

Now, don't get me wrong, George's car is very nice, and make no mistake that there is a TON of $$$ in it. As for 50/50, maybe they added a few hundred lbs. to the front, if not it is still *** heavy, like all 911s are.

As for Porsche engines:

They are one of the world's best manufacturers of turbocharged engines, and have been for many, many years.

The 928 S4 and all 928s have a bullet proof overhead cam V8 that will easily last 200,000 miles without the need for a rebuild. Show me a Corvette of similar year with a more bullet proof engine.

The tolerances on Porsche engine parts exceed anything coming out of a GM factory, anywhere, period.

Porsche was one of the first to successfully employ an all aluminum, liner-less engine. When GM attempted this in the Vega, it was a piece of ****.

I have worked on a lot of stuff in my lifetime, and by far, the crappy stuff has come from the big three. There isn't a lot of new thinking in their engines, let alone their cars.

I will say the Northstar engine is a nice piece of work, employing unique engineering concepts, like odd numbers of teeth on the timing belt pulleys to maximize wear of the pulleys and belts.

By far the easiest cars to work on come from across the Pond. Now, we can't compare a 1970 station wagon to a new Porsche, but you get the idea. There is nothing difficult about servicing a Porsche engine if you know where you are going.

I have a 1993 Audi with 190,000 miles on the clock. Now this is the 20 valve, turbocharged 2.2 liter with a performance chip. The car makes about 250-260 HP under the right conditions. I run it quite hard and it has yet to let me down. The engine has never been opened and it is very strong to date. It uses about 1/2 a quart of oil between 6,000 mile oil changes (in the winter only).

My 1981 928 is a completely stock engine with a turbocharging system bolted on. This engine runs stock cast pistons and all other engine inners while running 8.5 psig of boost. It too has never been opened up. Power is about 400 HP on a cold day.

I have a 1983 944 with over 140,000 miles on the clock. Same situation, never opened, no internal problems whatsoever.

All of the technology that is being put into the new pushrod V8s of today is technology you could get on a VW or Porsche nearly 20 years ago. Bosch pioneered fuel injection and continues to be the leader on this front. All other systems use their technology today.

Porsche, Audi and VW were using sodium filled valves a long time ago. When did this technology slip its way into GM engines?

Let's face the facts, we buy Porsches because we love the precision (some of you are probably brand snobs, but I am not including you). The way the car is built is very important. So why is it we think the engine of this car is any less precise than the chassis, suspension or the transmission? Simple, it isn't.

If you want to ruin your car by putting a heavy push rod V8 in it, be my guest.

John..

J959:

Your comment about running lower RPM is better doesn't hold water. You need to look at the piston speed at that power. A longer stroke means the piston is running at a higher speed in the bore. The engine may be running a higher RPM, but the piston speed in the lower RPM engine may actually exceed that of the higher RPM engine.

Eric-17

George:

I checked out your site today... Very nice looking 911. I did find your "comments about my car" page a little more than self-serving. Do you post these comments because you need to convince others (and yourself) that your Porsche is really a Porsche? I would say, stop worrying about what others think and do what you think is best for you..... I would never think to massacre a 911 with another makes motor, that's just me.

Aslo, all this talk about longevity.... We all know what will last longer, we have known this for years. Until recently, the big three paid little attention to the long term health of their vehicles. This didn't change until the Japanese won much marketshare with their small, ugly and very reliable vehicles. Tolerances? Quality control? Oh yea, americans work hard for their money..... They do value longevity. I watched my father (who was a Tool and Die Specialist) suffer through years of Fords and Chevys because he felt the need to buy American. Constanty rebuilding carbs, replacing seals and bearings and trying to keep interiors looking presentable. My mother and I drove Volvos, Audis and Toyotas until they reached 150 to 200,000 miles before selling them without many problems.

Sorry for rambling, I just don't think you'll ever win your argument here (or almost anywhere else). You have a fast car that looks nice. But is it not a Porsche and it not worth much more than any other of the many "piecemeal" vehicle out there. There, I feel better now. Thanks <img src="graemlins/wave.gif" border="0" alt="[byebye]" />

Carlos

Put down the torch and step away from the crack pipe. Once again the purists prove that they will not let the facts get in the way of what they want to believe!!!! If any of you idiots think George's car is loaded with lead, line yours up next to it for the shock of your life. And longevity, that piece of crap 6 won't produce 200 HP for 100k without needing a fortune in work. 10K for a rebuild is insane. Don't confuse this engine with the Porsche V8 and late model engines that do have good longevity, like late model american engines. And even the best of Porsche engines require extremely expensive standard servicing. American car owners would laugh at 1000 bucks for a timing belt @ 45000 mile intervals on a 4cyl 944. The 928 is the same. And before you start to say that the 911 engine is superior to those (that's why it's still around), I reject that completely. If you don't believe me, read this board, it's loaded with problems with these motors.

As for TP's claim that a top notch small block costs as much, ten grand will get you a SERIOUS small block chevy. To get similar Porsche power, call Pete at Andial but make sure you have AT LEAST $40K. And while you're on the phone, tell him that the geniuses on the board told you to expext 100k miles from that engine and see if he laughs. The new z06 is conservatively rated at 405hp. Yes it has more displacement but it needs no turbos, intercoolers etc. Performance is step for step with the 996 tt costing 2.5 times as much. Reliability, if you read this board it sounds like auto Dear Abby, problems, problems, problems. The corvette forum is not that way at all. Maybe they get a brochure in the glove box threatning the lives of their children if they let anyone know about their problems, or maybe they don't have as many.

The truth will set you free, but first it will **** you off.

t.p.

Carlos, you are out of your mind. My pops and bro are both mechanics who work on all makes and models, with specialization in BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, and Volvo.
There are more than a couple of SC's and Carreras in there with 150k plus miles with no rebuild work (not even top end) that are still running strong. GM sports-cars (i.e. vettes, camaros, firebirds, trans ams, etc.) cannot hold porsche's jock in the reliability department, and that's the truth. Bruce Anderson knows of an SC w/ over 400k w/ no rebuild work.
Also, who has the rep in endurance racing? Porsche.
You obviously don't know what you are talking about and your bias shows - we know you're anti-911/pro-K.G.A. ("kissing George's ***," for those not already in the know).

Carlos

TP, go by your local cab company and see how many american V8's they have w/ over 150k. And we're not talking about some freak museum exhibit bull**** this is everyday abuse. As for the racing rep, Porsche wins all the time in the ALL Porsche GT class. But vette's beat vipers and Ferrari's on a regular basis. They even won LeMans outright last year. So get YOUR head out of dads *** and dig on the sunlight.

t.p.

Carlos,
We're in the 911 forum, not the 996 forum. When these cars (911's) were built (the relevant time period here being 70's and 80's) Porsche was absolutely demolishing everybody. Remember the 917, 954, and 962?
As for LeMans, there is no current Class C (I believe that's the class) racer from porsche, so your arguments about corvette winning are pointless.

J.P.

Carlos, I have been working in the Bay Area for a long time and I see many American heaps of **** on daily basis which are in need of serious work pre 100k miles. Most of them can not even pass California Emissions Testing. I am also friends with many of the techs who work on Bay Area taxicabs and most of them go through serious engine work at just about 100k miles. By 150-200k miles these cars are ready for the dump. So Carlos get your head out of Georges ***. 90% of all the SC's and Carreras I work on run great at 150-200k miles and they also pass emission tests with flying colors.

t.p.

JP,
I don't think Carlos' head is in George's ***. It's banging against the headboard on George's bed.

turbocarrera.

Why do George and Carlos even post on this board? They obviously think Porsche engineering is crap, they've said so many times..

Of course you hear of people on this board that have blown up Porsche engines, this board is a resource for Porsches. When you think of the way people use Porsches, it doesnt seem so odd. You hear about all these guys that basically live at the track, I'm suprised we get as few blow-ups as we do. They get revved to redline alot more than your average American V8. You can be sure that if people ran stock SB350's the way they run stock 2.4L flat 6's, those 350's wouldn't last a month, well mebbe a few months. BTW i've blown up 3 sbc's, two slant 6's(good motors though), 2 FE big-block Fords, a 1.8L 4cyl toyota(another great engine), and a 2.2L 4cyl Honda. Yes I bag the ever-loving **** out of everything I drive.

I've owned my 3.0 turbo for 4 years now and other than the POS permatune that I junked immediately, it has run flawlessly. I've run it at 6K rpm in 4th gear for 5 minutes at a time and it doesn't use any more oil than normal, as far as I can tell. It's got 115K miles on it, still has great comp/leakdown numbers, and has never been opened - I suspect it won't need a rebuild till 200K miles or so(it's kind of my goal now). It runs just as smooth at 6500 rpm as it does at 2500. My buddies 5.0 Mustang feels like it's reaching critical mass if he gets over 4 grand.

Porsche engines own.

Flying Finn

Carlos (since you know everything about George's car) or George:

I repeat my honest and simple question (I'm not bashing, dismissing or anything, just curious):

How was that 50/50 achieved?

alfizzo

you porsche engine only people should do get some knowledge before rattling off useless remarks on engines porsche or chevy engines. the fact is that european race car have be powered by chevy small & big block chevy engines for decades. most of the high performance small and big block parts are not even made my gm. but the basic design of the small and big block make parts interchangable from one manafacuter making crank shafts to the other one making cams shafts which is what makes the chevy block so attractive to make what ever amount of hp you want, with cost effective,reliable and avaiable aftermarket performance parts. their is a massive i mean massive market to build a chevy bloack any way you want. where is this market for porsche???? maybe hans and frits can do it at the tune of 100 grand for the 15 grand it would take to the same with a chevy engine. so it all comes down to econonics of creating an engine to suit your needs. you porsche purist should be happy people are putting chevy v8 into one of the worlds best cars of all time. think of how many porsches the v8 conversion has saved from the bone yard. instead of spending big $$$$ on one of the worlds most over engineered air cooled just to keep it on the road, american engunity has save early 911's and 914's from a certain demise. just how much are modified porsches anyways? with all these aftermarket parts a 911 suspension can be completely non porsche factory parts. from wheels, torsion bar, spring plates, shocks, sway bars, coil overs, strut bars, body parts etc. all are not porsche parts.

the end!

nate

I think the point which a lot of the anti-Porsche posts are missing is this: The 911 (with the 911 motor) offers a powerful and reliable platform to drive hard. I have a mildly modified 1985 911 (exhaust, chip, K&N, and factory short shift kit)which will out perform most of my friends cars which are 10-15 years younger! She's not the fastest car out there, but nearly stock, I am able to eat up American and Japanese sports cars which, in some cases, are highly modified. Yes Porsche's are expensive to repair but all Porsche parts are performance parts. Let's keep in mind a lot of the American V8 stuff isn't all about performance - especially about long-term high RPM performance. Can you build a small block Chevy which can keep up with a Porsche on the track, yes. Why would you, though? The same reason not too many people are building drag cars with 911 motors because it's not the right tool for the job. Period.

nate

alfizzo-

Not to make this personal, but you've got some ***** slamming Porsche motors in your first post on these boards (let alone in this forum). Get behind the wheel or under the hood of a Porsche before you spend time posting about how their "over engineered" engines suck.

Nate.

A Quiet Boom

Come on guys! How about a non-biased reply here? Well here's mine!

American V8 engines where originally produced primarily for mass market daily driven type cars, the auto manufacturers built them so that after a reasonable amount of mileage the cars would wear out and need replace (it's called self preservation) this was during a time when people drove a lot less than today and 100k was considered a lot of miles for any car. Still these engines properly and inexpensively modified can and do produce large amounts of HP with relatively decent durability given their humble original design intention. Ever seen a 1000 HP V8 on the street? I have! I used to drive my 650+ NA HP Mustang on the street, until I got tired of the terrible handling of it's drag race suspension and severely inadequate brakes for any kind of spirited driving except short blasts where fade was not an issue.

On the other hand we have the Porsche, a car designed to be built in far smaller numbers and intended to be driven hard as well as raced, not haul a family etc. around. A car also intended to be driven at speed for long periods on the autobahn in an rpm range far above that standard shift point for a stock "grocery getter" V8. Porsche needed an engine that could withstand these conditions flawlessly in order to satisfy customers who where paying considerably more for there new cars than they would for another make. The H-6 aircooled engine is a wondeful design in that it has almost always produced at least 1hp per cubic inch or more and I'm sure much of it's reliabity can be traced to it's race derived dry sump oiling system. However aircooled engines also have serious problems as HP and displacement are increased but cooling can only be marginally improved. (Even the 959 had watercooled heads) Porsche parts and maintenance costs are dictated by the laws of scale as well as much tighter precision and quality control on what are essentially low production race parts with a relatively low demand.

Comparing a Porsche engine to a Chevy engine or any other pushrod American V8 is like comparing a Formula 1 engine to a Top Fuel dragster engine, sure the F1 engine produces what about 700-800 HP for the duration of the race it's intended to run but the Top Fuel engine produces in excess of 8000 HP for the 4.5-5 seconds it's intended to run so which ones better? The answer is simple, neither one is better, both perform admirably for their intended purpose. In the case of our production engines, most Americans want to feel that V8 torque push them back in the seat when they buy a musclecar, they don't want to wait for some small displacement engine to "spool up" no they want to push the loud pedal and spin the wheels so that's what the car companies give them. Those of us who prefer a vehicle that handles as well as it accelerates want an engine that can be hammered on without blowing up in a relatively lightweight nimble chassis and high rpm HP from a small displacement motor is just the ticket for those needs, we are willing to pay for it so Porsche and a few others build it, just remember the market for sportscars is much smaller than the market for any other type of car and therefore prices will generally be higher. Comparing apples to oranges is pointless. George I assume likes the look of the 911 and it's handling but he also likes wicked fast acceleration and brute torque that a small displacement engine just can't provide. As for the comments about V8's being big and heavy, have you weighed your P-car engine lately? how about measured it? The numbers will surprise you. Food for thought, an smallblock V8 with aluminum head and intake weighs less and is physically smaller than a 911 motor. Would I ever put a non-Porsche engine into a P-car, nope. Just like I won't bother trying to autocross or DE in a Mustang or Camaro. I'm brand purist to some degree but don't think I haven't thought of putting a turboed 928 motor into the backend of a 911 (I kind of agree with George on that point) If it's any consolation I wouldn't put a Chevy into a Ford either (unless I wanted to slow it down LOL )