Fast and Furious Paul Walker killed in CGT
12-01-2013, 11:34 AM
#46
Rennlist Member
Hitting a tree at 45 mph is never a good thing. Anything u hit that's fixed is going to look very ugly. Tboning into a tree at 45 mph would look bad. Let's say what others have said that if car was in excess of 100 mph into a tree car wouldn't be wrapped around tree as on photo it be torn in pieces way past the tree with occupants ejected from the seats. Really sad for families involved. Rip and condolescences to the family. Mike
12-01-2013, 11:39 AM
#47
Prayers to both families and may god speed the driver and his passenger. I would suggest that it is the very height of bad form to speak critically of the deceased, for the simple reason that they cannot defend themselves. While I understand the natural impulse to engage in conjecture about the speed and cause of the accident, any implication that the driver was acting foolishly or irresponsibly is both unkind and without foundation. The passenger is obviously swept into the tragedy and cannot possibly be anything other that a victim of the circumstance.
I've read banter in other forums about the "dangerous " CGT, stating that the car is allegedly a difficult car to drive. As a CGT owner, I must emphatically disagree. The CGT may be difficult to manage at the absolute limits of adhesion, but I have yet to find those limits. With modern tires (PS2s) and the traction control in the on position, its certainly no worse than any other high performance sports car. Heck, its a lamb compared to the Ford GT, which car I own and which have been crashed at a truly prodigious rate.
I have no idea what happened in this case, and I will not try to guess. Let's all be safe and careful.
On a completely different subject and unrelated to the tragedy which gave rise to the thread, most of the street accidents I have either witnessed, seen video of, or heard first hand accounts of involve wild oversteer followed by overcorrection. This is the natural result of mashing the throttle while turning at a relatively low speed, especially at an intersection. The simple rule of driving a high horsepower car: don't accelerate while turning. Heaven knows that with 600 hp, there is plenty of adrenaline to be safely found in a straight line or on a twisty canyon road. If you want smoking oversteer like you see on Top Gear, find a LARGE parking lot or an airstrip.
I've read banter in other forums about the "dangerous " CGT, stating that the car is allegedly a difficult car to drive. As a CGT owner, I must emphatically disagree. The CGT may be difficult to manage at the absolute limits of adhesion, but I have yet to find those limits. With modern tires (PS2s) and the traction control in the on position, its certainly no worse than any other high performance sports car. Heck, its a lamb compared to the Ford GT, which car I own and which have been crashed at a truly prodigious rate.
I have no idea what happened in this case, and I will not try to guess. Let's all be safe and careful.
On a completely different subject and unrelated to the tragedy which gave rise to the thread, most of the street accidents I have either witnessed, seen video of, or heard first hand accounts of involve wild oversteer followed by overcorrection. This is the natural result of mashing the throttle while turning at a relatively low speed, especially at an intersection. The simple rule of driving a high horsepower car: don't accelerate while turning. Heaven knows that with 600 hp, there is plenty of adrenaline to be safely found in a straight line or on a twisty canyon road. If you want smoking oversteer like you see on Top Gear, find a LARGE parking lot or an airstrip.
12-01-2013, 11:46 AM
#48
I've been in a 350z sideways at 92 MPH (i read the digital speed indicator right before the idiot driver I was with lost it) and went in and out of a ditch, then directly into a tree with impact hitting the front right wheel and digging into my door.
The car did not split in half.
So there's a CGT split in half with much more structural rigidity than my example accident--split in half--yet it was going at 45 MPH?
Come on. Don't be afraid to call a dumbass out when you see one.
Public road. Car split in half. The driver does not seem innocent to me. In fact, he seems quite a bit negligent to the safety of others.
I'm open to new evidence as it comes in, but that's what it appears IMHO.
The car did not split in half.
So there's a CGT split in half with much more structural rigidity than my example accident--split in half--yet it was going at 45 MPH?
Come on. Don't be afraid to call a dumbass out when you see one.
Public road. Car split in half. The driver does not seem innocent to me. In fact, he seems quite a bit negligent to the safety of others.
I'm open to new evidence as it comes in, but that's what it appears IMHO.
12-01-2013, 11:56 AM
#49
Prayers to both families and may god speed the driver and his passenger. I would suggest that it is the very height of bad form to speak critically of the deceased, for the simple reason that they cannot defend themselves. While I understand the natural impulse to engage in conjecture about the speed and cause of the accident, any implication that the driver was acting foolishly or irresponsibly is both unkind and without foundation. The passenger is obviously swept into the tragedy and cannot possibly be anything other that a victim of the circumstance.
I've read banter in other forums about the "dangerous " CGT, stating that the car is allegedly a difficult car to drive. As a CGT owner, I must emphatically disagree. The CGT may be difficult to manage at the absolute limits of adhesion, but I have yet to find those limits. With modern tires (PS2s) and the traction control in the on position, its certainly no worse than any other high performance sports car. Heck, its a lamb compared to the Ford GT, which car I own and which have been crashed at a truly prodigious rate.
I have no idea what happened in this case, and I will not try to guess. Let's all be safe and careful.
On a completely different subject and unrelated to the tragedy which gave rise to the thread, most of the street accidents I have either witnessed, seen video of, or heard first hand accounts of involve wild oversteer followed by overcorrection. This is the natural result of mashing the throttle while turning at a relatively low speed, especially at an intersection. The simple rule of driving a high horsepower car: don't accelerate while turning. Heaven knows that with 600 hp, there is plenty of adrenaline to be safely found in a straight line or on a twisty canyon road. If you want smoking oversteer like you see on Top Gear, find a LARGE parking lot or an airstrip.
I've read banter in other forums about the "dangerous " CGT, stating that the car is allegedly a difficult car to drive. As a CGT owner, I must emphatically disagree. The CGT may be difficult to manage at the absolute limits of adhesion, but I have yet to find those limits. With modern tires (PS2s) and the traction control in the on position, its certainly no worse than any other high performance sports car. Heck, its a lamb compared to the Ford GT, which car I own and which have been crashed at a truly prodigious rate.
I have no idea what happened in this case, and I will not try to guess. Let's all be safe and careful.
On a completely different subject and unrelated to the tragedy which gave rise to the thread, most of the street accidents I have either witnessed, seen video of, or heard first hand accounts of involve wild oversteer followed by overcorrection. This is the natural result of mashing the throttle while turning at a relatively low speed, especially at an intersection. The simple rule of driving a high horsepower car: don't accelerate while turning. Heaven knows that with 600 hp, there is plenty of adrenaline to be safely found in a straight line or on a twisty canyon road. If you want smoking oversteer like you see on Top Gear, find a LARGE parking lot or an airstrip.
12-01-2013, 12:13 PM
#50
Nordschleife Master
This image clearly shows that the car is indeed broken in half.
We've seen that these CF monocoque can break apart quite easily if hit at the right spot by a solid object. Remember that white Aventador accident from several months ago? Broken clear in 2 pieces on a relatively low speed accident.
We've seen that these CF monocoque can break apart quite easily if hit at the right spot by a solid object. Remember that white Aventador accident from several months ago? Broken clear in 2 pieces on a relatively low speed accident.
12-01-2013, 12:15 PM
#51
Nordschleife Master
12-01-2013, 12:23 PM
#52
Nordschleife Master
If you go to Google maps and look at where the accident happened, I really don't see a reason to have a shunt on that piece of road. It's a very soft corner and straightens out approaching the point of impact.
http://goo.gl/maps/R7gFb
Perhaps a car pulled out ahead of them from that same parking lot entrance/exit where they wrecked.
http://goo.gl/maps/R7gFb
Perhaps a car pulled out ahead of them from that same parking lot entrance/exit where they wrecked.
12-01-2013, 12:39 PM
#54
Speed was a factor in the crash, the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Office said.
The wreck took place about 3:30 p.m. (6:30 p.m. ET), about 300 yards from the office park where the event was held. The speed limit there is 45 mph.
Up and down the road near the crash site were burned rubber and doughnut marks as though someone smoked their tires in figure 8 patterns.
"I don't know if the marks in the road are related to the crash," said Los Angeles County sheriff's Sgt. Brian Allen. Deputies arrived at the scene to find a vehicle on fire, he said Once fire crews put the flames out, they found two occupants, both of whom were pronounced dead at the scene.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/30/showbi...l-walker-dies/
The wreck took place about 3:30 p.m. (6:30 p.m. ET), about 300 yards from the office park where the event was held. The speed limit there is 45 mph.
Up and down the road near the crash site were burned rubber and doughnut marks as though someone smoked their tires in figure 8 patterns.
"I don't know if the marks in the road are related to the crash," said Los Angeles County sheriff's Sgt. Brian Allen. Deputies arrived at the scene to find a vehicle on fire, he said Once fire crews put the flames out, they found two occupants, both of whom were pronounced dead at the scene.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/30/showbi...l-walker-dies/
12-01-2013, 01:08 PM
#55
I may be getting old, but just yesterday at the same time as this incident, I was driving my GT3 on the streets not more than 25 miles from Valencia, and I find myself getting increasingly nervous driving such a car on the streets. It is not my driving skill that concerns me, it's just there are too many variables on the street. Too many things that can cause a lack of concentration, or a sudden lift, etc etc..
12-01-2013, 01:09 PM
#56
Rennlist Member
Thanks for the map.......puzzling how they wrecked on such a relatively straight road......had to be in excess of 100mph and hit the light pole after overcorrecting the line of travel for some reason........slight curve at too much speed, avoiding another car, car suspension issue - maybe a mod gone bad, bad tires with traction control off, etc.........who knows, but it won't bring them back......god bless their souls and the loved ones left behind.............shocking event, especially since they were trying to do something charitable that day........
12-01-2013, 01:09 PM
#57
Our prayers are today with the families of Roger Rodas and Paul Walker. And may the two victims rest in peace!
I think some of you, especially Carrera GT owners, will remember the fatal accident in June of 2005 of a Carrera GT at California Speedway in Fontana. Benjamin M. Keaton, 39, and his passenger, Corey Nicholas Rudl, 34, both of La Jolla, died from injuries after Keaton lost control of a 2005 Porsche Carrera GT. The widow of Rudl filed a lawsuit alleging the wrongful death of her husband, who was a passenger in the CGT owned and driven by Ben Keaton at the Ferrari Owners Club track day! That lawsuit was settled years later for $4.5 million. Of that amount, 8% was provided by Porsche.
I think it behooves all at this forum, but especially current Carrera GT owners, to read an excellent 'legal' article (see link below) that appeared in 2007 in Sport Car Market when the suit was finally settled:
http://www.sportscarmarket.com/colum...or-4-5-million
The article includes this passage:
"The sole claim against Porsche was that the CGT was defective because it was designed without electronic stability control, which Porsche calls PSM. McClellan (the lawyer) deposed two German engineers on the subject, and their answers were inconsistent. One testified that Porsche did not think that its PSM system would work on the CGT because the car's frame structure and suspension mountings would create strong vibrations that would interfere with its operation. The other engineer testified that PSM was not offered because the customers didn't want it. McClellan suspects it was a marketing decision, as the CGT was marketed as a 'race car for the streets,' and race cars don't have electronic stability control. He notes that during its development, the CGT had exhibited a tendency to oversteer during high lateral acceleration. Porsche made some adjustments, but did not fully correct the problem, which explained why the mechanic who drove Keaton's car reported 'handling problems.' PSM would have corrected the 'tail happy' oversteer response to Keaton's steering input to avoid the Ferrari."
To be precise, the Carrera GT does have 'Traction Control' (TC) to prevent wheel spinning under acceleration. But it doesn't have 'Electronic Stability Control' (ESC), also referred to as electronic stability program (ESP) or dynamic stability control (DSC). That was also true for the .1 997 gt3 and .1 997 gt3 RS. Porsche decided to include both (ESC & TC), in what they called PSM, for the .2 997 gt3, RS, and 4.0 - perhaps as the result of the issues raised in this legal case and the fact that Porsche was held partially responsible!
We will have to wait and see what the results are of the crash investigation into the accident involving this Carrera GT with Roger and Paul. But I suspect these same legal issues, related to the lack of 'Electronic Stability Control' in this 558-horsepower Carrera GT sports car, will be revisited in this case. But for the moment, let's just mourn the tragic deaths of these two individuals. A very sad day indeed!
Saludos,
Eduardo
Carmel
I think some of you, especially Carrera GT owners, will remember the fatal accident in June of 2005 of a Carrera GT at California Speedway in Fontana. Benjamin M. Keaton, 39, and his passenger, Corey Nicholas Rudl, 34, both of La Jolla, died from injuries after Keaton lost control of a 2005 Porsche Carrera GT. The widow of Rudl filed a lawsuit alleging the wrongful death of her husband, who was a passenger in the CGT owned and driven by Ben Keaton at the Ferrari Owners Club track day! That lawsuit was settled years later for $4.5 million. Of that amount, 8% was provided by Porsche.
I think it behooves all at this forum, but especially current Carrera GT owners, to read an excellent 'legal' article (see link below) that appeared in 2007 in Sport Car Market when the suit was finally settled:
http://www.sportscarmarket.com/colum...or-4-5-million
The article includes this passage:
"The sole claim against Porsche was that the CGT was defective because it was designed without electronic stability control, which Porsche calls PSM. McClellan (the lawyer) deposed two German engineers on the subject, and their answers were inconsistent. One testified that Porsche did not think that its PSM system would work on the CGT because the car's frame structure and suspension mountings would create strong vibrations that would interfere with its operation. The other engineer testified that PSM was not offered because the customers didn't want it. McClellan suspects it was a marketing decision, as the CGT was marketed as a 'race car for the streets,' and race cars don't have electronic stability control. He notes that during its development, the CGT had exhibited a tendency to oversteer during high lateral acceleration. Porsche made some adjustments, but did not fully correct the problem, which explained why the mechanic who drove Keaton's car reported 'handling problems.' PSM would have corrected the 'tail happy' oversteer response to Keaton's steering input to avoid the Ferrari."
To be precise, the Carrera GT does have 'Traction Control' (TC) to prevent wheel spinning under acceleration. But it doesn't have 'Electronic Stability Control' (ESC), also referred to as electronic stability program (ESP) or dynamic stability control (DSC). That was also true for the .1 997 gt3 and .1 997 gt3 RS. Porsche decided to include both (ESC & TC), in what they called PSM, for the .2 997 gt3, RS, and 4.0 - perhaps as the result of the issues raised in this legal case and the fact that Porsche was held partially responsible!
We will have to wait and see what the results are of the crash investigation into the accident involving this Carrera GT with Roger and Paul. But I suspect these same legal issues, related to the lack of 'Electronic Stability Control' in this 558-horsepower Carrera GT sports car, will be revisited in this case. But for the moment, let's just mourn the tragic deaths of these two individuals. A very sad day indeed!
Saludos,
Eduardo
Carmel
12-01-2013, 01:30 PM
#59
Our prayers are today with the families of Roger Rodas and Paul Walker. And may the two victims rest in peace!
I think some of you, especially Carrera GT owners, will remember the fatal accident in June of 2005 of a Carrera GT at California Speedway in Fontana. Benjamin M. Keaton, 39, and his passenger, Corey Nicholas Rudl, 34, both of La Jolla, died from injuries after Keaton lost control of a 2005 Porsche Carrera GT. The widow of Rudl filed a lawsuit alleging the wrongful death of her husband, who was a passenger in the CGT owned and driven by Ben Keaton at the Ferrari Owners Club track day! That lawsuit was settled years later for $4.5 million. Of that amount, 8% was provided by Porsche.
I think it behooves all at this forum, but especially current Carrera GT owners, to read an excellent 'legal' article (see link below) that appeared in 2007 in Sport Car Market when the suit was finally settled:
http://www.sportscarmarket.com/colum...or-4-5-million
The article includes this passage:
"The sole claim against Porsche was that the CGT was defective because it was designed without electronic stability control, which Porsche calls PSM. McClellan (the lawyer) deposed two German engineers on the subject, and their answers were inconsistent. One testified that Porsche did not think that its PSM system would work on the CGT because the car's frame structure and suspension mountings would create strong vibrations that would interfere with its operation. The other engineer testified that PSM was not offered because the customers didn't want it. McClellan suspects it was a marketing decision, as the CGT was marketed as a 'race car for the streets,' and race cars don't have electronic stability control. He notes that during its development, the CGT had exhibited a tendency to oversteer during high lateral acceleration. Porsche made some adjustments, but did not fully correct the problem, which explained why the mechanic who drove Keaton's car reported 'handling problems.' PSM would have corrected the 'tail happy' oversteer response to Keaton's steering input to avoid the Ferrari."
To be precise, the Carrera GT does have 'Traction Control' (TC) to prevent wheel spinning under acceleration. But it doesn't have 'Electronic Stability Control' (ESC), also referred to as electronic stability program (ESP) or dynamic stability control (DSC). That was also true for the .1 997 gt3 and .1 997 gt3 RS. Porsche decided to include both (ESC & TC), in what they called PSM, for the .2 997 gt3, RS, and 4.0 - perhaps as the result of the issues raised in this legal case and the fact that Porsche was held partially responsible!
We will have to wait and see what the results are of the crash investigation into the accident involving this Carrera GT with Roger and Paul. But I suspect these same legal issues, related to the lack of 'Electronic Stability Control' in this 558-horsepower Carrera GT sports car, will be revisited in this case. But for the moment, let's just mourn the tragic deaths of these two individuals. A very sad day indeed!
Saludos,
Eduardo
Carmel
I think some of you, especially Carrera GT owners, will remember the fatal accident in June of 2005 of a Carrera GT at California Speedway in Fontana. Benjamin M. Keaton, 39, and his passenger, Corey Nicholas Rudl, 34, both of La Jolla, died from injuries after Keaton lost control of a 2005 Porsche Carrera GT. The widow of Rudl filed a lawsuit alleging the wrongful death of her husband, who was a passenger in the CGT owned and driven by Ben Keaton at the Ferrari Owners Club track day! That lawsuit was settled years later for $4.5 million. Of that amount, 8% was provided by Porsche.
I think it behooves all at this forum, but especially current Carrera GT owners, to read an excellent 'legal' article (see link below) that appeared in 2007 in Sport Car Market when the suit was finally settled:
http://www.sportscarmarket.com/colum...or-4-5-million
The article includes this passage:
"The sole claim against Porsche was that the CGT was defective because it was designed without electronic stability control, which Porsche calls PSM. McClellan (the lawyer) deposed two German engineers on the subject, and their answers were inconsistent. One testified that Porsche did not think that its PSM system would work on the CGT because the car's frame structure and suspension mountings would create strong vibrations that would interfere with its operation. The other engineer testified that PSM was not offered because the customers didn't want it. McClellan suspects it was a marketing decision, as the CGT was marketed as a 'race car for the streets,' and race cars don't have electronic stability control. He notes that during its development, the CGT had exhibited a tendency to oversteer during high lateral acceleration. Porsche made some adjustments, but did not fully correct the problem, which explained why the mechanic who drove Keaton's car reported 'handling problems.' PSM would have corrected the 'tail happy' oversteer response to Keaton's steering input to avoid the Ferrari."
To be precise, the Carrera GT does have 'Traction Control' (TC) to prevent wheel spinning under acceleration. But it doesn't have 'Electronic Stability Control' (ESC), also referred to as electronic stability program (ESP) or dynamic stability control (DSC). That was also true for the .1 997 gt3 and .1 997 gt3 RS. Porsche decided to include both (ESC & TC), in what they called PSM, for the .2 997 gt3, RS, and 4.0 - perhaps as the result of the issues raised in this legal case and the fact that Porsche was held partially responsible!
We will have to wait and see what the results are of the crash investigation into the accident involving this Carrera GT with Roger and Paul. But I suspect these same legal issues, related to the lack of 'Electronic Stability Control' in this 558-horsepower Carrera GT sports car, will be revisited in this case. But for the moment, let's just mourn the tragic deaths of these two individuals. A very sad day indeed!
Saludos,
Eduardo
Carmel
I couldn't help but think of this crash as well when this happened. RIP all.
