PCNA sample letter -North American Supercharger access…
11-07-2023, 01:09 PM
#76
Burning Brakes
Also - Lucid just announced NACS yesterday. I wonder if Cory Steuben was insistent on it?
Besides VAG, Stellantis is still not on board. They just did a big RAM Truck video showing their upcoming electrified truck product. (ICE, PHEV, BEV all using the same platform.) No mention of NACS. The 3D image of the drivetrain clearly showed wiring for a conventional CCS port.
Last edited by whiz944; 11-07-2023 at 01:13 PM.
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daveo4porsche (11-07-2023)
11-07-2023, 02:38 PM
#78
Burning Brakes
... Besides VAG, Stellantis is still not on board. They just did a big RAM Truck video showing their upcoming electrified truck product. (ICE, PHEV, BEV all using the same platform.) No mention of NACS. The 3D image of the drivetrain clearly showed wiring for a conventional CCS port.
Diesel-electric don't generally have battery storage. So the split also allows for massive torque at low speeds (think pulling 100+ freight cars) with no multi-speed gearbox.
The RAM PHEV is more like the i3 REx (though obviously with everything scaled to truck size.) There is no mechanical connection between the ICE and the wheels. In the Gen 1 Voltec architecture, at highway speeds the ICE can be connected directly through the planetary gearbox to the drive wheels via a clutch. GM claimed this gives an extra ~10% boost in fuel economy compared to the split generator/motor configuration used at lower speeds. The Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV is sort of similar.
The Gen 2 Voltec has a different configuration than the Gen 1 Volt, and has two sets of planetary gears. When not running pure electric, it allows the ICE to be coupled more efficiently at a larger variety of speeds. It doesn't really use a split generator/motor configuration at low speeds like the Gen 1 Volt. (Though I can think of a couple of exceptions.)
Last edited by whiz944; 11-07-2023 at 02:52 PM.
11-07-2023, 04:11 PM
#79
I can see the Workmen and Towing crowd being excited about this RAM Series hybrid; never any range concerns when towing or on long trips on the highway, and all of the EV range; (and hence fuel savings) you’d ever need around town.
One thing that surprises me though is why use a 3.6 litre V6 ICE simply as a generator when it isn’t connected at all to the drivetrain? Wouldn’t a more fuel efficient In-line 4 work since all the ICE does is produce electrons for the battery and motors? An in-line 4 works for Gereracs when they’re powering your house after all.
One thing that surprises me though is why use a 3.6 litre V6 ICE simply as a generator when it isn’t connected at all to the drivetrain? Wouldn’t a more fuel efficient In-line 4 work since all the ICE does is produce electrons for the battery and motors? An in-line 4 works for Gereracs when they’re powering your house after all.
11-07-2023, 06:49 PM
#80
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I can see the Workmen and Towing crowd being excited about this RAM Series hybrid; never any range concerns when towing or on long trips on the highway, and all of the EV range; (and hence fuel savings) you’d ever need around town.
One thing that surprises me though is why use a 3.6 litre V6 ICE simply as a generator when it isn’t connected at all to the drivetrain? Wouldn’t a more fuel efficient In-line 4 work since all the ICE does is produce electrons for the battery and motors? An in-line 4 works for Gereracs when they’re powering your house after all.
One thing that surprises me though is why use a 3.6 litre V6 ICE simply as a generator when it isn’t connected at all to the drivetrain? Wouldn’t a more fuel efficient In-line 4 work since all the ICE does is produce electrons for the battery and motors? An in-line 4 works for Gereracs when they’re powering your house after all.
11-07-2023, 07:55 PM
#81
Not enough power, probably. Also, residential generacs are rated for 200-hour oil changes and 3000-hour rebuilds (at least the one I had), which would not be robust enough for a work truck. Industrial ones are way more stout but the biggest 4-cylinder industrial one tops out at just over 100hp. More powerful ones have 9 - 27 litres and 8-12 cylinders.
I didn't realize that Generacs had such short oil change/rebuild criteria. Thanks for sharing.
11-08-2023, 12:23 PM
#82
Burning Brakes
I can see the Workmen and Towing crowd being excited about this RAM Series hybrid; never any range concerns when towing or on long trips on the highway, and all of the EV range; (and hence fuel savings) you’d ever need around town.
One thing that surprises me though is why use a 3.6 litre V6 ICE simply as a generator when it isn’t connected at all to the drivetrain? Wouldn’t a more fuel efficient In-line 4 work since all the ICE does is produce electrons for the battery and motors? An in-line 4 works for Gereracs when they’re powering your house after all.
One thing that surprises me though is why use a 3.6 litre V6 ICE simply as a generator when it isn’t connected at all to the drivetrain? Wouldn’t a more fuel efficient In-line 4 work since all the ICE does is produce electrons for the battery and motors? An in-line 4 works for Gereracs when they’re powering your house after all.
Another example is the Gen 1 vs Gen 2 Chevy Volt. Gen 1 offers a "mountain mode" which tells the car to maintain ~40% battery charge. This allows for plenty of reserve for, um, climbing mountains. Otherwise if you hit the Grapevine with zero percent charge, you'll get "propulsion power reduced" and the car will go slow up the grade. The Gen 2 Volt has both a larger battery pack and more powerful ICE. So GM set the MM threshold to ~20% instead of ~40%. (When I drive my wifes Gen 2 Volt on the highway, I generally put it in MM regardless. When the charge dwindles down to ~20%, the ICE starts to be used. Then, a few miles from home, I set it back to "normal" to use up the rest of the charge.)
I'd assume RAM engineers tested various battery vs ICE configurations and settled on something reasonable. The weird thing to me is that the Pacifica PHEV, the various Jeep PHEVs, and this new RAM PHEV architectures/implementations are all completely different from each other. It is almost like the various Stellantis divisions aren't talking to one another...
Last edited by whiz944; 11-08-2023 at 12:25 PM.
11-08-2023, 07:23 PM
#83
Something folks buying the PHEV version will have to watch out for: Imagine you are cruising down the highway using EV power. As the battery pack drops to 0%, the ICE is started to supply power to the system. Say it is Interstate 5. Then you hit the Grapevine... The ICE alone may not generate enough power to propel the car at highway speeds and you wind up in the far right lane going 30 mph with the fully loaded semis. The US version of the BMW i3 REx suffered badly from this problem. Euro version of the i3 have a "hold" capability where you can tell the car to use the ICE at higher than 0% battery charge and "hold it there". This allows for a reserve of battery power to be maintained to make it over the grade. Most other PHEVs have some sort of "hold" and/or "mountain mode" settings for this purpose.
Another example is the Gen 1 vs Gen 2 Chevy Volt. Gen 1 offers a "mountain mode" which tells the car to maintain ~40% battery charge. This allows for plenty of reserve for, um, climbing mountains. Otherwise if you hit the Grapevine with zero percent charge, you'll get "propulsion power reduced" and the car will go slow up the grade. The Gen 2 Volt has both a larger battery pack and more powerful ICE. So GM set the MM threshold to ~20% instead of ~40%. (When I drive my wifes Gen 2 Volt on the highway, I generally put it in MM regardless. When the charge dwindles down to ~20%, the ICE starts to be used. Then, a few miles from home, I set it back to "normal" to use up the rest of the charge.)
I'd assume RAM engineers tested various battery vs ICE configurations and settled on something reasonable. The weird thing to me is that the Pacifica PHEV, the various Jeep PHEVs, and this new RAM PHEV architectures/implementations are all completely different from each other. It is almost like the various Stellantis divisions aren't talking to one another...
Another example is the Gen 1 vs Gen 2 Chevy Volt. Gen 1 offers a "mountain mode" which tells the car to maintain ~40% battery charge. This allows for plenty of reserve for, um, climbing mountains. Otherwise if you hit the Grapevine with zero percent charge, you'll get "propulsion power reduced" and the car will go slow up the grade. The Gen 2 Volt has both a larger battery pack and more powerful ICE. So GM set the MM threshold to ~20% instead of ~40%. (When I drive my wifes Gen 2 Volt on the highway, I generally put it in MM regardless. When the charge dwindles down to ~20%, the ICE starts to be used. Then, a few miles from home, I set it back to "normal" to use up the rest of the charge.)
I'd assume RAM engineers tested various battery vs ICE configurations and settled on something reasonable. The weird thing to me is that the Pacifica PHEV, the various Jeep PHEVs, and this new RAM PHEV architectures/implementations are all completely different from each other. It is almost like the various Stellantis divisions aren't talking to one another...
11-09-2023, 10:23 PM
#84
Something folks buying the PHEV version will have to watch out for: Imagine you are cruising down the highway using EV power. As the battery pack drops to 0%, the ICE is started to supply power to the system. Say it is Interstate 5. Then you hit the Grapevine... The ICE alone may not generate enough power to propel the car at highway speeds and you wind up in the far right lane going 30 mph with the fully loaded semis. The US version of the BMW i3 REx suffered badly from this problem. Euro version of the i3 have a "hold" capability where you can tell the car to use the ICE at higher than 0% battery charge and "hold it there". This allows for a reserve of battery power to be maintained to make it over the grade. Most other PHEVs have some sort of "hold" and/or "mountain mode" settings for this purpose.
Another example is the Gen 1 vs Gen 2 Chevy Volt. Gen 1 offers a "mountain mode" which tells the car to maintain ~40% battery charge. This allows for plenty of reserve for, um, climbing mountains. Otherwise if you hit the Grapevine with zero percent charge, you'll get "propulsion power reduced" and the car will go slow up the grade. The Gen 2 Volt has both a larger battery pack and more powerful ICE. So GM set the MM threshold to ~20% instead of ~40%. (When I drive my wifes Gen 2 Volt on the highway, I generally put it in MM regardless. When the charge dwindles down to ~20%, the ICE starts to be used. Then, a few miles from home, I set it back to "normal" to use up the rest of the charge.)
I'd assume RAM engineers tested various battery vs ICE configurations and settled on something reasonable. The weird thing to me is that the Pacifica PHEV, the various Jeep PHEVs, and this new RAM PHEV architectures/implementations are all completely different from each other. It is almost like the various Stellantis divisions aren't talking to one another...
Another example is the Gen 1 vs Gen 2 Chevy Volt. Gen 1 offers a "mountain mode" which tells the car to maintain ~40% battery charge. This allows for plenty of reserve for, um, climbing mountains. Otherwise if you hit the Grapevine with zero percent charge, you'll get "propulsion power reduced" and the car will go slow up the grade. The Gen 2 Volt has both a larger battery pack and more powerful ICE. So GM set the MM threshold to ~20% instead of ~40%. (When I drive my wifes Gen 2 Volt on the highway, I generally put it in MM regardless. When the charge dwindles down to ~20%, the ICE starts to be used. Then, a few miles from home, I set it back to "normal" to use up the rest of the charge.)
I'd assume RAM engineers tested various battery vs ICE configurations and settled on something reasonable. The weird thing to me is that the Pacifica PHEV, the various Jeep PHEVs, and this new RAM PHEV architectures/implementations are all completely different from each other. It is almost like the various Stellantis divisions aren't talking to one another...
strangelove is an apt reference. Chill the **** out and love the bomb.
11-10-2023, 04:44 PM
#85
Burning Brakes
this is not at all how the 296 and artura operate, and it won’t be an issue for the 911 hybrid, whenever Porsche decides to make one. It’s 100% wild to me that folks are like “Porsche engineers are amazing, the 911 is the best” and “they’ll never figure out how to do something other people have already done”
strangelove is an apt reference. Chill the **** out and love the bomb.
12-15-2023, 05:37 PM
#86
Burning Brakes
SAE J3400, the formal NACS Standard, is about to be released. As far as AC charging goes, it ends up being like the European Type 2 connection. They provide a 3-phase receptacle at the charging station. Then vehicle owners provide their own cables:
https://electrek.co/2023/12/15/saes-...oblem-at-once/
The 277V aspect should be entertaining. Though it hasn't been advertised much, Tesla has supported 277V since the Model S first came out. However I have no idea how many other manufacturers support it. Although the article doesn't mention it, I'm also wondering if they have extended 120V charging to 24 amps. (The current 120V current limit in J1772 is 16 amps, though a number of automakers support higher.) This would help folks that camp at RV parks fully utilize TT-30 receptacles.
All the more reason for VAG/Porsche to expedite NACS support here. And kiss Elon's ring for native Supercharger access like almost all the other legacies have...
https://electrek.co/2023/12/15/saes-...oblem-at-once/
The 277V aspect should be entertaining. Though it hasn't been advertised much, Tesla has supported 277V since the Model S first came out. However I have no idea how many other manufacturers support it. Although the article doesn't mention it, I'm also wondering if they have extended 120V charging to 24 amps. (The current 120V current limit in J1772 is 16 amps, though a number of automakers support higher.) This would help folks that camp at RV parks fully utilize TT-30 receptacles.
All the more reason for VAG/Porsche to expedite NACS support here. And kiss Elon's ring for native Supercharger access like almost all the other legacies have...
Last edited by whiz944; 12-15-2023 at 06:00 PM.
12-15-2023, 05:47 PM
#87
A lot of EV owners/manufacturers, and not just Porsche, would like access to tesla chargers. But the reality is, it’s Musk’s sand box, and he’s setting the rules and timeline. Like everything Musk does, he hopes and promises a lot, but delivers little, or late. I suspect he’s gotten a LOT of push-back from Tesla owners who don’t want to share their chargers with non cult members.
I’ve been told from a friend that works at Tesla, that don’t expect the Tesla chargers to be widely available to non-Teslas “anytime soon”. He said not to expect widespread availability until mid-2024, at best. Until then, you will have to settle for the few, sporadically placed tesla chargers that are open to non-Teslas.
I’ve been told from a friend that works at Tesla, that don’t expect the Tesla chargers to be widely available to non-Teslas “anytime soon”. He said not to expect widespread availability until mid-2024, at best. Until then, you will have to settle for the few, sporadically placed tesla chargers that are open to non-Teslas.
Last edited by CodyBigdog; 12-15-2023 at 05:51 PM.
12-15-2023, 06:36 PM
#88
Burning Brakes
A lot of EV owners/manufacturers, and not just Porsche, would like access to tesla chargers. But the reality is, it’s Musk’s sand box, and he’s setting the rules and timeline. Like everything Musk does, he hopes and promises a lot, but delivers little, or late. I suspect he’s gotten a LOT of push-back from Tesla owners who don’t want to share their chargers with non cult members.
I’ve been told from a friend that works at Tesla, that don’t expect the Tesla chargers to be widely available to non-Teslas “anytime soon”. He said not to expect widespread availability until mid-2024, at best. Until then, you will have to settle for the few, sporadically placed tesla chargers that are open to non-Teslas.
I’ve been told from a friend that works at Tesla, that don’t expect the Tesla chargers to be widely available to non-Teslas “anytime soon”. He said not to expect widespread availability until mid-2024, at best. Until then, you will have to settle for the few, sporadically placed tesla chargers that are open to non-Teslas.
From what I've been reading, the Version 3 and upcoming Version 4 Superchargers will be the ones that can talk to non-Teslas. They can do both the traditional CAN-based Supercharger communication, and the PLC-based communication that CCS/NACS requires. The older Version 2 and Urban Superchargers only speak the older CAN-based method. Sounds unlikely the latter will be upgraded.
12-15-2023, 07:48 PM
#89
As someone who does more than 90% of my charging from home, what Musk does, or doesn’t do with his chargers is immaterial to me.
I’ve made multiple trips to Chicago, Philly and Boston…and had no issues re-charging at EA. As more EA (and other) chargers come on line, and hopefully(fingers crossed) 🤞more EV owners start using Tesla chargers, I’m not expecting to have any difficulties re-charging using EA.
Last edited by CodyBigdog; 12-15-2023 at 07:52 PM.
12-15-2023, 07:58 PM
#90
