PCNA sample letter -North American Supercharger access…
12-31-2023, 05:58 PM
#166
12-31-2023, 06:07 PM
#167
This is the kind of responsible leadership we need (this is from the Wyoming Governor, a staunch Conservative): Compromise.
Disclosure: I am Independent, and vote for either side, if they have the best ideas on how to solve problems that impact me - locally, state or national.
Disclosure: I am Independent, and vote for either side, if they have the best ideas on how to solve problems that impact me - locally, state or national.
Last edited by CodyBigdog; 12-31-2023 at 06:11 PM.
01-01-2024, 06:12 PM
#168
it's one of my many gripes with charging stations. you are exposed to the elements the entire time. try standing outside in 100 degree weather in texas to charge .....or heavy rain...
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Dr. G7 (01-02-2024)
01-02-2024, 12:23 PM
#169
When I had to charge my 800 V Taycan in a heavy rain,
01-02-2024, 12:35 PM
#170
Burning Brakes
But no one stands next to the charge port for 15-30 minutes waiting for their car to charge. Go to the mini-mart, restaurant, or whatever. Use the "facilities". Buy a snack. And if you still need to wait a bit, sit in the car, plan the next segment of the trip, and catch up on some email. (If in a Tesla, play some video games or watch some youtube videos on the center screen.) Unlike a gas car, you can have the car running with A/C or heating while you fill.
I seem to recall that in the case of gas pumps, canopies are required by law in some jurisdictions. But with 30 seconds of googling, haven't really found anything definitive on that point.
Last edited by whiz944; 01-02-2024 at 12:37 PM.
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Dr. G7 (01-02-2024)
01-02-2024, 12:56 PM
#171
LOL!
But no one stands next to the charge port for 15-30 minutes waiting for their car to charge. Go to the mini-mart, restaurant, or whatever. Use the "facilities". Buy a snack. And if you still need to wait a bit, sit in the car, plan the next segment of the trip, and catch up on some email. (If in a Tesla, play some video games or watch some youtube videos on the center screen.) Unlike a gas car, you can have the car running with A/C or heating while you fill.
I seem to recall that in the case of gas pumps, canopies are required by law in some jurisdictions. But with 30 seconds of googling, haven't really found anything definitive on that point.
But no one stands next to the charge port for 15-30 minutes waiting for their car to charge. Go to the mini-mart, restaurant, or whatever. Use the "facilities". Buy a snack. And if you still need to wait a bit, sit in the car, plan the next segment of the trip, and catch up on some email. (If in a Tesla, play some video games or watch some youtube videos on the center screen.) Unlike a gas car, you can have the car running with A/C or heating while you fill.
I seem to recall that in the case of gas pumps, canopies are required by law in some jurisdictions. But with 30 seconds of googling, haven't really found anything definitive on that point.
Even with AC running, it's still better to sit under a shaded area.
01-02-2024, 01:58 PM
#172
Ditto on my EV trips to Boston and Chicago.
Generally get out for a stretch, and/ or walk the dog….or sit in the car and watch a movie.
06-23-2024, 07:07 PM
#173
Burning Brakes
EA took our money $2 billion (VW consent decree) and ran. Hired VW executives (same folks who did the emissions bypass) and prolly paid them hefty salaries. To do nothing. Apparently EV CEO Robert Barrosa tried to do LA to VA and it didn’t go well.
But then, Bidenomics invested $7.5 billion in EV charging. Three years later, one charger has been installed in Ohio, with the assistance of General Motors, Pilot Company and EVgo.
Our government at work. I don’t whether to laugh or cry.😿
But then, Bidenomics invested $7.5 billion in EV charging. Three years later, one charger has been installed in Ohio, with the assistance of General Motors, Pilot Company and EVgo.
Our government at work. I don’t whether to laugh or cry.😿
Federal Register :: National Electric Vehicle Infrastructure Standards and Requirements
07-01-2024, 11:44 PM
#174
Burning Brakes
After NACS "happens" what will remain is the stark reality that EA, Chargepoint and EVGo (and others) so far have zero demonstrated competence at keeping their networks operational - and once your remove the "CCS1" induced failures from the equation you're left with operational problems with the organization and their business practices that have nothing to do with CCS, CCS1, NACS, or anything to do with actually charging the vehicle. 90% of the time when I have a problem with EA it's either because - all the stations are broken/offline, or I can't get the session to actually start because EA can't seem to debug their process for starting a charging session (there are 10 ways to start an EA session none of which actually work most of the time).
Tesla never had problem #1, and they have demonstrated competence on items #2 and #3 vs. the other guys.
Tesla never had problem #1, and they have demonstrated competence on items #2 and #3 vs. the other guys.
I hate the idea that all charging can be run by a single corporation; there's too much dangerous, anti-consumer potential there.
Nor do I have faith in Elon Musk to continue doing the right thing regarding anything Tesla-oriented, as we've seen his bad decisions regarding the charging team this past month; imagine the good he could have done if he'd spent that $44B building out the charging network instead of buying Twitter.
Rather than write a letter to Porsche about getting NACS charging going, I'd much rather see Porsche (and VW) with their large financial clout to press EA to make all their chargers work like Porsche chargers work at Porsche dealerships (and get them fixed "yesterday" when they break down). Tesla made the smart decision to build out a charging infrastructure; I commend Musk for that much. The pre-existing automakers who have since started making BEVs made the huge mistake of not doing the same thing with the CCS infrastructure that Tesla did with NACS; Porsche/VW, GM, Ford, and all the other major automakers erred big-time in not building out the CCS infrastructure at the same time that they put BEVs up for sale. That's the bigger problem, not converting ports to NACS. (And reading the news and forums, and watching YouTube videos by BEV owners, I see Supercharging sites starting to have more and more problems, too.) But it's also on the automakers to make sure that charging stations can either (1) plug-and-charge seamlessly or (2) accept credit cards without fail. Smartphones should NEVER be necessary to charge a car, under any circumstance whatsoever. I imagine that gas stations would quickly go out of business if they required a smartphone to fill up on gas. And the masses will never adopt BEVs without a credit-card/cash (or simple plug-and-charge akin to transponder tolling) system in place; BEVs are dead in the water in terms of widespread adoption otherwise, period.
The biggest problem, Dave, is that charging companies (incl. Tesla) don't follow the gas-station model that has developed the way it has naturally and usefully and practically for a century: have full-time attendants onsite, who can (1) maintain security for both chargers and customers; (2) get chargers fixed promptly when they break; (3) accept both credit-card and cash payments quickly; (4) help people who have troubles physically or mentally to charge their cars; (5) maintain windshield-washing supplies; (6) have restrooms and sell food; (7) have canopies to shield customers from rain and solar glare while pumping electrons (like nearly all gas stations have now). Etc. Again, the masses will not adopt BEVs without having charging stations that have the convenience of gas stations.
So this is what Porsche and VW and GM and Ford and Hyundai/Kia and every other automaker needs to be doing now: putting their money on a proper infrastructure surrounding charging, and building out the infrastructure *and maintaining it*. The CCS vs. NACS issue is way down the list in terms of importance. Seriously.
Just read a story on InsideEVs, on the recent improvement (Quarter 1, 2024) of EA charger downtime: "According to J.D. Power, a fifth of charging attempts failed at non-Tesla chargers in the first quarter—that’s 20%, or twice as much as Electrify America's stations. Tesla’s Supercharger network had a fail rate of just 5%, so it’s clear that all the other charging companies still have work to do to catch up.But EA thinks it can get close, thanks to the continued improvement and expansion of its DC fast charging network."
Last edited by cometguy; 07-02-2024 at 12:48 AM. Reason: postscript
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07-02-2024, 01:12 AM
#175
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I'm in the camp that hopes that the federal government will continue to build out and fund CCS charging stations across the USA.
I hate the idea that all charging can be run by a single corporation; there's too much dangerous, anti-consumer potential there.
Nor do I have faith in Elon Musk to continue doing the right thing regarding anything Tesla-oriented, as we've seen his bad decisions regarding the charging team this past month; imagine the good he could have done if he'd spent that $44B building out the charging network instead of buying Twitter.
Rather than write a letter to Porsche about getting NACS charging going, I'd much rather see Porsche (and VW) with their large financial clout to press EA to make all their chargers work like Porsche chargers work at Porsche dealerships (and get them fixed "yesterday" when they break down). Tesla made the smart decision to build out a charging infrastructure; I commend Musk for that much. The pre-existing automakers who have since started making BEVs made the huge mistake of not doing the same thing with the CCS infrastructure that Tesla did with NACS; Porsche/VW, GM, Ford, and all the other major automakers erred big-time in not building out the CCS infrastructure at the same time that they put BEVs up for sale. That's the bigger problem, not converting ports to NACS. (And reading the news and forums, and watching YouTube videos by BEV owners, I see Supercharging sites starting to have more and more problems, too.) But it's also on the automakers to make sure that charging stations can either (1) plug-and-charge seamlessly or (2) accept credit cards without fail. Smartphones should NEVER be necessary to charge a car, under any circumstance whatsoever. I imagine that gas stations would quickly go out of business if they required a smartphone to fill up on gas. And the masses will never adopt BEVs without a credit-card/cash (or simple plug-and-charge akin to transponder tolling) system in place; BEVs are dead in the water in terms of widespread adoption otherwise, period.
The biggest problem, Dave, is that charging companies (incl. Tesla) don't follow the gas-station model that has developed the way it has naturally and usefully and practically for a century: have full-time attendants onsite, who can (1) maintain security for both chargers and customers; (2) get chargers fixed promptly when they break; (3) accept both credit-card and cash payments quickly; (4) help people who have troubles physically or mentally to charge their cars; (5) maintain windshield-washing supplies; (6) have restrooms and sell food; (7) have canopies to shield customers from rain and solar glare while pumping electrons (like nearly all gas stations have now). Etc. Again, the masses will not adopt BEVs without having charging stations that have the convenience of gas stations.
So this is what Porsche and VW and GM and Ford and Hyundai/Kia and every other automaker needs to be doing now: putting their money on a proper infrastructure surrounding charging, and building out the infrastructure *and maintaining it*. The CCS vs. NACS issue is way down the list in terms of importance. Seriously.
Just read a story on InsideEVs, on the recent improvement (Quarter 1, 2024) of EA charger downtime: "According to J.D. Power, a fifth of charging attempts failed at non-Tesla chargers in the first quarter—that’s 20%, or twice as much as Electrify America's stations. Tesla’s Supercharger network had a fail rate of just 5%, so it’s clear that all the other charging companies still have work to do to catch up.But EA thinks it can get close, thanks to the continued improvement and expansion of its DC fast charging network."
I hate the idea that all charging can be run by a single corporation; there's too much dangerous, anti-consumer potential there.
Nor do I have faith in Elon Musk to continue doing the right thing regarding anything Tesla-oriented, as we've seen his bad decisions regarding the charging team this past month; imagine the good he could have done if he'd spent that $44B building out the charging network instead of buying Twitter.
Rather than write a letter to Porsche about getting NACS charging going, I'd much rather see Porsche (and VW) with their large financial clout to press EA to make all their chargers work like Porsche chargers work at Porsche dealerships (and get them fixed "yesterday" when they break down). Tesla made the smart decision to build out a charging infrastructure; I commend Musk for that much. The pre-existing automakers who have since started making BEVs made the huge mistake of not doing the same thing with the CCS infrastructure that Tesla did with NACS; Porsche/VW, GM, Ford, and all the other major automakers erred big-time in not building out the CCS infrastructure at the same time that they put BEVs up for sale. That's the bigger problem, not converting ports to NACS. (And reading the news and forums, and watching YouTube videos by BEV owners, I see Supercharging sites starting to have more and more problems, too.) But it's also on the automakers to make sure that charging stations can either (1) plug-and-charge seamlessly or (2) accept credit cards without fail. Smartphones should NEVER be necessary to charge a car, under any circumstance whatsoever. I imagine that gas stations would quickly go out of business if they required a smartphone to fill up on gas. And the masses will never adopt BEVs without a credit-card/cash (or simple plug-and-charge akin to transponder tolling) system in place; BEVs are dead in the water in terms of widespread adoption otherwise, period.
The biggest problem, Dave, is that charging companies (incl. Tesla) don't follow the gas-station model that has developed the way it has naturally and usefully and practically for a century: have full-time attendants onsite, who can (1) maintain security for both chargers and customers; (2) get chargers fixed promptly when they break; (3) accept both credit-card and cash payments quickly; (4) help people who have troubles physically or mentally to charge their cars; (5) maintain windshield-washing supplies; (6) have restrooms and sell food; (7) have canopies to shield customers from rain and solar glare while pumping electrons (like nearly all gas stations have now). Etc. Again, the masses will not adopt BEVs without having charging stations that have the convenience of gas stations.
So this is what Porsche and VW and GM and Ford and Hyundai/Kia and every other automaker needs to be doing now: putting their money on a proper infrastructure surrounding charging, and building out the infrastructure *and maintaining it*. The CCS vs. NACS issue is way down the list in terms of importance. Seriously.
Just read a story on InsideEVs, on the recent improvement (Quarter 1, 2024) of EA charger downtime: "According to J.D. Power, a fifth of charging attempts failed at non-Tesla chargers in the first quarter—that’s 20%, or twice as much as Electrify America's stations. Tesla’s Supercharger network had a fail rate of just 5%, so it’s clear that all the other charging companies still have work to do to catch up.But EA thinks it can get close, thanks to the continued improvement and expansion of its DC fast charging network."
V3 and V4 Tesla Supercharger NACS sites _ARE_ a CCS network w/NACS physical plug end…and the port design both on the car and the charging cable is a win for reliability and easier manufacturing (yes that's true there is a video from Sandy Murano about the "win" from a manufacturing point of view vs. CCS1 terrible design).
CCS2 physical design in Europe also has no moving parts on the cable or physical plug and it's shaped to be easier to handle and insert vs. the triangle shaped CCS1 North American design - I honestly would've been unsurprised if everyone had pivoted away from CCS1 as a physical design, and just adopted the CCS2 design from Europe - it shares many of the same advantages as NACS and has proven to be more usable and reliable vs. CCS1 - it also already has broad support in the EV supply chain and clearly has design support from all EV vendors - frankly I'd be equally happy with NACS _OR_ CCS2 as a physical plug migration because CCS1 is not viable as a long term design.
I respectfully disagree with much of your post - but I can see your perspective - plug&charge should make it un-necessary for either credit card readers or apps - but apps are acceptable in my opinion…
both China and Europe have vastly superior charging networks with very little vendor involvement - it's no real problem to charge a CCS2 EV in Europe with a robust and rich set of choices from multiple vendors…
it's a mess in the US and I'm not sure what the proper mix of govt and private industry is to "fix" the problem
what is true is even with some problems the Supercharger network is vastly more reliable, functional and built out than _ANY_ other EV charging network in North America
it also happens to be the biggest and most reliable CCS network in North America - as it has more stalls/sites capable of CCS charging (via NACS or a CCS1 adapter) than any other network vendor…and it's also slated to grow more than any other CCS network in North American even with Musk's reduced investment
I can not and will not defend Musk and have lost what little respect I had for him in the past several years - I'd prefer a sane person running Tesla and by implication the North American supercharger network.
the EV charging problem in North American is not going to be addressed 4-6 stalls at a time with 3 stalls "out of service" which seems to be the plan for all the non-Tesla charging vendors in North America.
this continues to be a "sh*t show" - but at lease with NACS the cable and the actual plug can be handled by a wider range of humans - and the NACS plug design has no moving parts so it's vastly less likely to fail making it far less likely a stall is out of commission waiting for a plug/cable replacement…
NACS as a plug design is a clear win (Ford CEO and other agree with me)
CCS is the charging protocol/standard we are using - we are simply quibbling over which shape of plug we are using for 5 connectors inside the plug (2 DC hot, 2 low voltage comm, 1 ground - NACS and CCS1 have exactly the same number/purpose of electrical connections).
I can agree we need NACS based CCS charging network alternatives to Tesla's CCS Supercharger network (V3 and V4 superchargers ARE CCS when they need to be) - but no credible alternatives are stepping forward
CCS1 as a physical plug design MUST die - it's horrible and an ergonomic disaster and MTBF poster child in how not to do it
but frankly at the moment the supercharger network is the _ONLY_ functional, built out, and reliable CCS network available right now…and the other's are at least a decade behind.
Last edited by daveo4porsche; 07-02-2024 at 01:28 AM.
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07-03-2024, 07:20 PM
#176
...is that charging companies (incl. Tesla) don't follow the gas-station model that has developed the way it has naturally and usefully and practically for a century: have full-time attendants onsite, who can (1) maintain security for both chargers and customers; (2) get chargers fixed promptly when they break; (3) accept both credit-card and cash payments quickly; (4) help people who have troubles physically or mentally to charge their cars; (5) maintain windshield-washing supplies; (6) have restrooms and sell food; (7) have canopies to shield customers from rain and solar glare while pumping electrons (like nearly all gas stations have now). Etc. Again, the masses will not adopt BEVs without having charging stations that have the convenience of gas stations.
So this is what Porsche...and every other automaker needs to be doing now: putting their money on a proper infrastructure surrounding ."
So this is what Porsche...and every other automaker needs to be doing now: putting their money on a proper infrastructure surrounding ."
Isn't your description of a gas station (...have full-time attendants...security etc.) rather idealistic?
"help people who have troubles physically or mentally to charge their cars" You do have good sense of humor. I cannot see the minimum wage gas station assistant (challenged by a simple cash register) attempting to help me with my Taycan protocol - handshaking errors.