bensf

I would love to try a set of R6's but no trailer or tow vehicle. So, no go unless you're volunteering to transport a set of wheels for me to the next track event

mrd_spy

put some one in your car at 70 kg's and you feel it easy,

SO make your car another 70Kgs lighter and you feel it easy :-)

Last time i was on track and took people round later in the day I had to ajust my braking points a bit earlier.

weight is key ;-) hence why 150BHp Lotus cars buzz about on track days
I don't have a pedal brake feel issue but I am on PCCB which are said to not have such the issue of non PCCB cars..

khooni

oh Joe...... the brake issue will not go away with me......

I agree on track that firmer pedal give greater confidence. It simply has too. It's just that on the road that same firmness, for a road car, makes it nigh on impossible to heel toe properly. I think that's why the road cars ie non GT variants have brakes that are the way they are. long travel and quite mushy when you really squeeze on them. There I said it.

However, to guys that don't heel/toe on the road (which given that only I seem to be aggravating about this, appears to be the majority), this is not an issue. You learn to be gentler on the brakes in normal driving and yet have that hard pedal when you need to lean on them on the track.


It's just that having discovered how to do it, I just can't get enough of blipping the throttle whenever I can. It also promotes better/ smoother shifting and quick feet. Certainly I am way busier doing this than pootling around in my C63...

An instructor whom I have been taking lessons from, commented that the next step is to combine heel/toe with left foot braking..... You actually have to witness this one in person.....

orthojoe

Yes, weight is important. However, my point is 10-20 lbs. of sprung weight is not noticeable to anyone. 70kg I would agree is definitely noticeable.

I have PCCB on my spyder as well. PCCBs on a 987 have a mushy pedal too. Khooni can confirm this as well....

Supposedly the BRZ has a short travel/firm brake pedal. It will be interesting to see what I think of heel/toe with that car on the street. I agree that our spyders are super easy to heel/toe on the street (I use the roll method on the street since the brake pedal doesn't have to go as far). On the track, not as easy. I can't use the roll method at the track since the pedal goes too far down past the throttle, so I use the classic heel stab method at the track.

mrd_spy

10lbs is not no, but 160lbs is.

Hence why I think the Spyder should not have any extra,s and people who want the weight/toys back in should buy a normal Boxster and imo bought the wrong car lol. ;-p

I own a GT3 and yes while heal and toe is perfect in the GT3 , I don't have a brake issue/feel in my Spyder. I have tried to find this so called issue but I don't have it.
My car is a press car though so the most look after car in terms of prep and new things fitted.
Unlike most, Porsche have a press car number on the production line,
It's upto you to decide if press cars are tweeked or better built, I know Ferrari play that game for press cars. And it's odd Posche mark a car as a press car from the start.
It's also one fast car, matching my GT3 to 100mph making it a sub 10 second 100mph car.

khooni

ah PCCBs.... no i am done trying to convince myself.....


I always use the classic method because i simply don't know how to roll and get the revs high enough (also i have narrow feet)..... maybe that's where the sport mode I've always derided becomes useful. Because I use the classic method, i just can't do it well enough even on pccb equipped cars. Thank god, you don't have steels Joe........ the world's biggest brake master cylinder might not be enough....lol

Schmidts Cat

Khooni, you've stated you are new to the heel-toe thing... Why don't you take our (experienced) word for it? You will get there in time. There is no car I can't heel-toe in, and I am no pro. Some are just easier than others. If you have narrow feet, wear some wider shoes! I have steelies... I love them, and had no issues prior to installing the GT3 MBC. I just like the firmer pedal. As for left-foot-breaking while H/T, not sure what you mean? If your left foot is on the break, why would you need to have your right foot there too? You heel-toe to allow the left foot to operate the clutch....???? Please enlighten me!

orthojoe

Hmm.. I missed that one. Left foot braking is commonly done on turbocharged cars with dual clutch transmissions. You use the left foot to brake so you can you the right foot to apply throttle pressure. This allows you to keep the turbo spooled while you are braking so there's no lag when you are back on the throttle and exiting the corner. This technique will generate extra heat, though. You can also left foot brake mid corner if you don't want to lift on the throttle. Neither of these involve downshifting a manual transmission.

I'm not sure you understood the instructor correctly. It's not possible to left foot brake and heel toe at the same time. You'd need a third leg...
Or perhaps we're not understanding and you meant that the ability to left foot brake and also heel toe is an impressive individual feat, not something that is performed simultaneously.

khooni

I have always been heel/toeing. I just didn't know it could be done so effortlessly on multiple downshifts ie 5th to 2nd sequentially and smoothly by someone who knows what they are doing. Until this year.
also, to say a car can't have heel/toe is wrong (and i never said so) just the degree of difficulty on the street.

maybe i just need to practise and of course track my car/cars more. well, roll on 2013.

bensf

Can you post a video? Not understanding how you would left foot brake and heel and toe at the same time.

khooni

unfortunately it is proprietary to andy walsh. You can buy his instructional video here which is very good

http://www.carlimits.com/


under left foot braking. he introduces a concept where he is left foot braking and then transitions to right foot brake and classic heel and toe....... Not many can do this.....

everything in the video presented is doable if you have his skills. he tests for Uk race teams/manufacturers to help setup cars and races and instructs as well. quality guy.

Plavan

Guys- Take a step back away from the computer..... You are driving street cars on the track occasionally.

khooni

Plavan. I agree. But it doesn't stop me thinking that there's so much to learn.

He acknowledges that the fancy footwork saves thousandths of a second but he does use left foot braking to control brake bias and create understeer during a potential spin which straightens the car (rear drive only) without wheel work. It is very humbling when you get him to show you what he can do on YOUR car.

mrd_spy

You are not creating under steer during a spin or changing brake bias...

Do another course with him and ask more questions :-).

Or read more about slip angles and weight transfer.

Left foot braking helps the car get over understeer not causes it ....
Hence why a lot of race drivers tend to trail brake.

To save a spin you need a much more aggressive brake push to lock the front wheels at the point your slip angles have ...well slipped :-)

I would not try this if you don't get it, you will either have a much bigger spin due to the weight transfer or reck your gearbox.

Z356

Reading what Steve Colletti wrote and his mention of Rennlister NJ-GT, who raced a Cayman in competition for years, reminded me of this email exchange I had with him a few years ago (11/2010) when I was considering ordering the new '12 Cayman R:

"I know you have some experience with these cars and I would like to ask your opinion. I am planning to order a Cayman R in a few weeks. I live in Carmel, CA and will use the Cayman R mostly as a fun car (not primary vehicle) for the street. Might do one or two DE perhaps at local Laguna Seca track, if that, per year. I will order it with A/C, so that is adding 26 pounds or so. But trying to keep with the spirit of the Spyder & Cayman R theme 'lighter is better' and for allowing the sharper-focused suspension to do its job better, I was considering ordering the $1700 Lithium Ion Battery and the $8150 PCCB's brakes on this car. I am getting a discount on the Cayman R from my dealer so these two options will only cost me net $1400 and $6000 each, but it's still quite an expense, especially in relationship to overall MSRP. If you were buying this car and using it for the purposes I outlined above, would you add these two options? And do you think you could feel the lighter weight of the battery (22 pounds) and the unsprung weight reduction of the ceramic brakes on all four corners? What is your general opinion of the PCCB's for mostly street use in a vehicle like this or the Spyder? Regards, Eduardo (z356)"

11/30/10. "Pal, save your money. Don't get PCCB, don't get lithium battery unless you're going to race for money (like I did this year with my 07 Cayman S). These two $10k options will save you 45 lbs, that's it. The Cayman R and Boxster Spyder wheels are light, but the OZ Allegeritta 18"wheels are even lighter and so cheap ($380 each), another 11 lbs weight saving. The 996 GT3 racing seats are both affordable and lighter than the stock Cayman R / Boxster Spyder (another 16 lbs lighter). If you want a light battery, the stock Cayman R battery is light already (35 lbs), if you want lighter then pay and rely on a battery tender everyday, because even the Lithium batteries need to be recharged often. So here you go, you can sell your stock seats, buy the 996 GT3 Recaro seats for cheaper, use the extra money for wheels and tires, buy a light battery, be lighter than the Cayman R with PCCB and Porsche lithium battery, while having an extra set of wheels with track tires. With the Cayman R, there is no reason to buy a brand new Cayman S anymore. Regards"

NJ-GT has these titles under his belt, so he has some credibility on the subject matter:
2011 Daytona DE Cup World Series Champion
2012 Sebring DE Cup World Series Champion
2012 Homestead DE Cup World Series Champion

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Our own Bensf recently weighted his Spyder OEM battery. He took advantage of a recent group buy of Voltphreaks Lithium Battery* and this is what he wrote at the time:

"I just finished installing the VPR-P6. I weighed it at 6 lbs. OEM battery weighed in at 43lbs. The Rennline battery mount measured 1.5 lbs. Total savings of 35.5 lbs. It will be interesting to see if I can feel any handling difference tomorrow at Thunderhill." For the record, he previously posted earlier on this thread that: "I have one of these 'bloated' Spyders and thought that I would notice a difference when switching to a lightweight battery but didn't. I thought maybe I'll notice when switching to Sport Buckets but didn't feel a difference there either."

*https://rennlist.com/forums/987-981-...-r-owners.html

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Interesting subject & I hope many more in this forum can add to the dialogue!

Saludos,
Eduardo

PS 930man - I still remember your beautiful MY2010 'Speed Yellow' gt3. After you sold it, it was briefly at 'The Garage' in Miami for sale. Do you miss it?