daveo4porsche

I've sent the following - as a community I think feedback to PCNA will help our cause here…
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Dear PCNA,

I am writing to you as a loyal and happy Porsche customer. I love my 2020 Taycan Turbo and it excels at all things except in one area. The North American CCS charging network is simply unacceptable in terms of quality, reliability, and customer experience. Fortunately for both of us there is an alternative that will greatly enhance my Porsche ownership experience, and your competitors in North America are showing the way. Frankly all Porsche EV need access to Tesla's supercharger network and that will greatly enhance my ownership experience and continued loyalty to the brand for future purchases.

In the short term (2024 or 2025) I am request the 3 A's (AAA)

• A1 - Negotiated Access to the North American Supercharger Network (like Ford & GM have done)
• A2 - an Adapter to access the North American Supercharger Network (like Ford & GM will do)
• A3 - an App to start/stop/bill my Supercharger charging sessions (we all know software can be done here)

The AAA listed above is a viable and technically feasible solution for alternatives to the dire state of CCS EV charging services and frankly necessary for the continued growth of Porsche EV's in North America. The above approach is also technically functional TODAY with existing fleet Taycan's as demonstrated by my existing Taycan charging happily at the Scotts Valley, CA Tesla supercharger.

Further integration questions, NACS port support, in car plug&charger, etc… can be left to future plans and longer term considerations. However lack of access to the Tesla Supercharger network in 2024 and beyond is going to be a severe competitive disadvantage and affect the long term value of all Porsche EV on the North American used market.

The AAA approach outlined above requires _NO_ modification to any existing Taycan (Macan or 718 EV) and provides 100% compatible access to Tesla's supercharger network greatly enhancing the desirability of Porsche EV products in North America. Porsche being recognized leader in Performance should want to provide access to the recognized leader in North American fast charging which is the Tesla Supercharger network.

I look forward to your prompt attention to this reasonable request and look forward to continuing to be a Porsche EV customer.

Spyerx

I have a feeling this one is going to play out with a first mover advantage and more and more will sign with Tesla. It's the right thing to do. EA is an unmitigated **** show disaster.

The only saving grace would be if VAG took

This VHS vs BETA is going to play out how we all know it will :-)

Does Tesla do 800v yet?

daveo4porsche

th is isn't beta max and VHS - it's USB A vs. UBS C

800V doesn't matter - Tesla can do 150 kW @ 400 V if you have the 400V/150 kW option - but the NACS connect can support more than 800V should that be the case...

supercharger V3 can do 250 kW @ 400V today - and V4 I think is 400/800V or more…

volage is not a consumer concern - charging speed is a consumer concern - and 150 kW is fast charging and fast than I normally get at 800V EA stations that happen to work…

this letter separates two issues

issue #1: access to the North American supercharger network -AAA approach provides much needed/required "ACCESS" with no modification required to existing/future Porsche EV's
issue #2: shipping a vehicle with a NACS port from the factory - and in vehicle software support for supercharger network

AAA is the approach to buy time to take a more measured approach to issue #2 -and frankly AAA could be a medium or even long term solution - it's 100% viable and functional and you could ship CCS vehicles forever...but that would be a bad "look" just like Chademo is a bad look on Nissan products today...

AAA gets what you need - access to the supercharger network and requires no changes to existing vehicle's or even future vehicle's.

daveo4porsche

Ford and GM announced three separate things - but it's all muddied - in my opinion it helps to rigorously separate the 3 components and deal with them separately…

1. North American access to the entire Tesla Supercharging network
2. they are abandoning the CCS physical standard and adopting NACS
3. software supercharger integration both in-vehicle and app based integration

now these things taken together imply all sorts of thing, but honestly they are separate issues that can be addressed separately if you want to - one does not have to do all of them - one can do only some of them if they want to -but your solution will be "less complete" if you don't take on the whole mess…and the most visible change (NACS) implies #1 and #2 - and frankly once you're doing #2 you might as well do the other 2…

you can do thing #1 with out doing thing #2
and you can do thing #2 with out doing thing #1 (less interesting but technically feasible)
#3 is pointless with out #1 or #2

all that is required IMHO is thing #1 for existing and future North American EV's to be viable (Porsche in particular)

thing #2 actually means that future Ford/GM products will require an Adatper for charging at CCS EA/ChargePoint/EVGo - but that adapter exists today and app access exists today to start charging sessions - so people are less freaked out…

I believe only thing #1 is required for future EV sales from competitors - you can separate a decision on thing #2 from your solution to thing #1…

but thing #1 is minimum standards going forward - either by Tesla's grace or Porsche' negotiation skills…not having thing #1 makes the car very very much less desirable for new/used sales.

this is not VHS vs. Betamax - this s USB-C (CCS) vs. AppleLightening Connector(NACS) - and Ford/GM's announcement would be like Samsung/Sony announcing they are ditching USB-C on their cell phones…but that will never happen - because USB-C doesn't suck and Lightening was never really an option…

I want thing #1 - and eventually thing #2 will probably happen because Tesla/Ford/GM…but honestly they are two separate issues, but can be easily entangled.

daveo4porsche

the fact that Ford and GM did not stop at just #1, but they are doing the other items as well I believe speaks volumes about their confidence in the long term viability of CCS as a physical design standard and it suitability for the task at hand (again I'm betting Ford had lots of data on this topic given their charging angel's effort)…again "read the room" on this announcement - CCS is dead in North America as a physical plug standard - but may live on as a charging/protocol standard that can be executed over a NACS connector…

I see no reason for CCS as a charging protocol to go away - and I believe the two can happily co-exist on the same connector and via adapters (your 2026 Ford MachE can/should be able to charge at an EA site via a CCS adapter). Frankly I don't know why a customer should care what protocol my charge station/EV have negotiated - as long as I plug it in and electrons flow to the battery as fast as possible.

CCS is not dead as a charging standard - but the associate/assume/implied physical plug shape is most likely now "legacy" and transition will need to occur…and this is a good thing - because the ergonomics and reliability of the design of the CCS plug is horrible and there are least two better existing alternatives in the supply chain: Euro-Pllug and NACS - both of which offer improvements over CCS 1 in North America.

NOTE: some EVGo stations already have effectively an NACS cable - but they achieved it by essentially gluing the Tesla CCS adapter onto the end of their existing CCS cables - LOL. - so for some EVGo sites they are already "adopting" NACS as an alternative cable connector and have been since 2020…so they were ahead of the game here.

https://www.evgo.com/blog/charging-y...go-autocharge/

Matt Britter

@daveo4porsche you are correct, about electrons flowing over a connector, who cares what it looks like. What you should care about is the protocol that runs it all. From a cybersecurity standpoint, multiple groups broker your PI across that cable, and its much more than just your CC number. Did you see the EV hack in the EU after the Ukraine invasion?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10692981/Isle-Wight-EV-charge-points-hacked-****-websites.html
https://evehicleshop.in/hackers-the-emerging-threat-to-ev-charging-stations/
Not trying to be alarmist, just something to think about. It's not a problem you had when putting gas in the tank.

daveo4porsche

I agree - so if that's a concern do the charging start/stop out of band - you only need PI flowing across the connector for plug&charge - otherwise it's purely command/control protocol for start/stop electron flow...

but I'm not sure the CCS stuff is that secure and I have no idea how Tesla does their plug&charge - but I don't think there is a lot of PI information -just vehicle identify to let tesla know what account to 'bill'...

but yeah - PI is a concern, but none of these EV charging protocol's should be sending PI in order to start/stop a charging session…if they are I'd redesign for that.

daveo4porsche

the link here are about hacking the eV charging stations - nothing to do with PI information flowing over the "wire" from the car - not sure either CCS or Tesla's supercharger protocol has all that much PI information coming from the vehicle when you plug it in.

Don40

With the Ford and GM deal CCS is dead. EA only have themselves to blame, if they provided a reliable charge service most people with CCS plugs would have continued to make do, but they were horrible and deserved to be steamed rolled by Tesla. Tesla chargers are truly plug and play and that is what people want, pull up to a charger plug in and get your vehicle charged. EA and the others charging systems were pull up to the charger hopes it works, unplug replug, move to a different charger, get 10kw charging replug and if you are lucky get 75 kw if another vehicle was charging. On a good day you plugged in and it all worked you get 150kw plus and felt lucky, no way to run a business when you advertise 350kw.
I hate to admit it but Elon, has kicked EA so hard they will not exist in the next decade, they totally blew it, but that is what happens when you provide lousy customer service.
Personally, I knew we had to come to one standard charger like in Europe, and the world will eventually come up with one universal plug for all EV in the future, and Tesla might win this game again. Hats off to Elon, he outsmarted all the others manufacturers and shows that the other executives are not that smart.
I love my Taycan as a vehicle and on every road trip in the future will be reminded of how VW fell asleep at the charger switch, but I will have true plug and play charging.

daveo4porsche

it's also clear a portion of the blame for CCS station reliability is the bad physical design of the CCS 1 plug in North America - it's fragile, heavy, and when the plug breaks the entire station is "offline" until they can dispatch staff to replace/repair the very expensive 800V water cooled cable (a time consuming task)…NACS has no moving parts on the station's cable design, is smaller, lighter, and has better ergonomics and is less fragile by design, and easier to "insert" into the plug…CCS is very reliable in Europe with a different plug design - I'm not saying CCS 1's physical design is the entire problem, but it is a "signifcant factor" and one of the reasons Superchargers are easier to use and more reliable, and why Ford/GM decided to move away from it (first hand experience from the past several years)

NACS is also easier/cheaper from a vehicle design/supply chain, manufacturing complexity point of view, but requires slightly better software (huh go figure) - CCS 1 is more mechanically straight forward, but complex, bulky and expensive, NACS is smaller, more dense, less mechanically complex, but requires a more sophisticated charging infrastructure in vehicle and some software smarts - one was designed by SAE (detroit) and the other by engineers in Silly-con valley - Sillycon valley is winning this one…

the CCS 1 fragility issue was specifically called out by the Ford CEO in his CNBC interview - and Ford has "data" from their multi-year charging angel effort - I have to believe this decision was partly based on their extensive data from personal experience that they came to realized CCS 1 was irredeemable as a physical design exercise…and they had to do something...CCS 1 is just simply a 100% failed design not suited/well-considered for it's task - add to that some corporate incompetence and lack of motivation to actually have/maintain a functional charging network and that gets you to where we are today.

CCS as a charging protocol and electrical standard is fine - I do not forsee it going away - the physical design of the CCS 1 plug in North America however is a failed design on a number of dimensions - I forsee CCS charging protocol running across the NACS physical design plug - this is already proven to work - CCS 1 has 5 electrical connections in the plug - NACS has 5 electrical connections in the physical plug...Tesla vehicle's support both CCS and Supercharging - two different electrical charging standards - and the Tesla's use a "passive" adatper from CCS to NACS - so it's already proven and shipping production product that CCS as a charging protocol works perfectly over the NACS plug - also my Taycan which is CCS based works just fine at existing Supercharger's where Tesla has added the "magicdock" a passive NACS to CCS 1 adapter…so the _ONLY_ problem seems to be we have the wrong shaped physical plug - all the electronics and software already work!!!

We just need a better connector - but up until Ford/GM no one was going to take that "leap" - yeah it's bad - but it's standard - well the leap has been taken and it will roll forward from here…and honestly NACS is way way way better to interact with physically vs. the horrible CCS1 plugs.

CCS as a charging protocol will be with us for decades as it should be…
CCS 1 plug design needs to die in a fire and then have it's ashes ejected into the sun

other countries run reliabile CCS network with different plug designs (NOTE:the euro CCS plug has the locking "latch" on the vehicle and not the plug just like NACS and they have fewer problems with station reliability due to physical damage on the charging cords)

there is no reason Prosche can not provide a NACS adatper for existing CCS North American EV's - and the should step up like Ford and GM have to negotiate access to the supercharger network…

ABB charging station vendor announced that they are supporting NACS - because guess what it's not that hard…and it's a better design.

daveo4porsche

frankly I would've been fine moving to the Euro plug standard…it seems to work well and is clearly well supported and understood by the entire industry - but in this case NACS is what seems to be the future. But moving to an existing plug design (NACS or otherwise) is a better option long term than yet another "new" design, and CCS 1 has too many flaws - it's better for EV's long term that this is happening - better now than later.

whiz944

Nit: The EVgo "Tesla" connectors are actually implemented via re-purposing the old Tesla CHAdeMO adapter - with longer cables. In fact the CHAdeMO plug normally rests in the receptacle in the adapter box. It won't work with anything other than Teslas. (CANbus communications, old Supercharger protocol, etc.) EVgo may have to install a fourth cable: NACS, CCS, older Teslas via integrated CHAdeMO, and finally CHAdeMO.

The EVgo autocharge+ works great - though it takes about a minute to authorize. But one has to use the CCS side. So a Tesla has to have the newer charge port ECU to be "CCS enabled", and one uses the Tesla CCS adapter. In other words, you can't use the CHAdeMO-based Tesla connector and get autocharge+.

whiz944

The CCS2 plug actually does exist in North America under the guise of SAE J-3068. The Standard was tweaked a bit to match North American voltages and such, but is basically the same as the Euro version. Guessing we'll see this in the future in industrial environments where they'd like to do 3-phase AC charging.

Drifting

good idea Dave,

I hope that porsche does this in the next two years before the electric 718 comes out as I hope to make that my next DD.

I test drove a Taycan Turbo and liked much (but not all) about it. However, one of the biggest reasons I kept my Tesla model 3 performance as my daily driver is because EA and all other charging networks in NA are terrible compared to the Supercharger network.

Dr. G7

Excellent! Exactly what we need to do, ASAP.

Please may I know how (email, snail mail) you sent the letter? Thanks